Daytona Aircraft Services. Call me when you have a part number?

[Jrags]

I'm a new Mooney M20G owner and I need a new tach cable.  I called these folks at the Daytona Mooney Service Center to see if they can help me.  I told them what I needed and he said, "Do you have a part number?"  I said no and he said, "I'm useless without a part number.  Call me back when you get a part number."  And the call ended.

I agree he is pretty useless.  I really can't see EVER involving them in my airplane.

[Shadrach]

Pretty sure the number you’re looking for is 940040-503. I agree that’s not great service from an MSC. Nevertheless, you should have an Illustrated parts manual and a Maintenance manual for your plane if you wish to be a savvy owner. 
 

Be glad he didn’t price it out for you. You’d have liked him even less…

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, Jrags said:

I'm a new Mooney M20G owner and I need a new tach cable.  I called these folks at the Daytona Mooney Service Center to see if they can help me.  I told them what I needed and he said, "Do you have a part number?"  I said no and he said, "I'm useless without a part number.  Call me back when you get a part number."  And the call ended.

I agree he is pretty useless.  I really can't see EVER involving them in my airplane.

Im not trying to make excuses for them, but finding good maintenance for your new airplane is going to be one of the most difficult parts.  Likely you’ll need to be deeply involved with it yourself.  The best outcomes seem to be from owners who find the problem, help troubleshoot, find the parts and at least help with installation.  Again, I don’t think it has to be this way or should be this way, but currently it seems to work out like this.  It’s still a good ride…

[dkkim73]

Well, another thing to be concerned with.

What's the best way to get a parts manual and a maintenance manual? Are those factory items? I'm kind of a nerd for good maintenance manuals but, even for cars, they are hard to find sometimes. 

 

[C.J.]

13 minutes ago, dkkim73 said:

What's the best way to get a parts manual and a maintenance manual?

 

Right here on Mooneyspace.com - click browse then click downloads. Lots of manuals you can download from there. Hope that helps.

[laytonl]

McFarland may have a replacement for you.

https://www.mcfarlaneaviation.com

 Lee

[GeeBee]

I have to say the parts distribution model from the Mooney factory is broken. Sure you want to protect your service centers but the service centers don't want to sell parts. Most of them don't even have a parts person. When you need a part from them, you have to talk to a mechanic who is much more valuable working on the floor than selling parts. There needs to be a factory direct parts system with revenue sharing to the MSCs. Otherwise, it is going to get more frustrating than it already is.

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, GeeBee said:

I have to say the parts distribution model from the Mooney factory is broken. Sure you want to protect your service centers but the service centers don't want to sell parts. Most of them don't even have a parts person. When you need a part from them, you have to talk to a mechanic who is much more valuable working on the floor than selling parts. There needs to be a factory direct parts system with revenue sharing to the MSCs. Otherwise, it is going to get more frustrating than it already is.

It’s hard to invest in parts sales infrastructure when you don’t have the cash flow to maintain a parts inventory.

[PT20J]

2 hours ago, dkkim73 said:

Well, another thing to be concerned with.

What's the best way to get a parts manual and a maintenance manual? Are those factory items? I'm kind of a nerd for good maintenance manuals but, even for cars, they are hard to find sometimes. 

 

Actually, the best way is to buy them from Mooney. Because if you get them from Mooney, Mooney will update them for free. Why is this important? Because some years back, Mooney stopped revising the documents because revisions require FAA approval. So, with limited staff and money, they stopped doing revisions and just scanned them all into pdf files which Frank Crawford adds comments to as part number or effectivities change without rolling the revision. Theoretically, the notes are just being gathered for the next revision which will never occur. So, there is absolutely no way to know that whatever document you download from the web has all the current updates. Better to get an update from Mooney once a year or so.

[PT20J]

I've discussed parts sales with a few MSCs and most are unenthusiastic about selling parts to owners. First, Mooney doesn't provide a discount from MSRP, so MSCs all have to set their own markup which means they have to deal with owners shopping multiple MSCs for the lowest price. Second, there isn't enough money in parts sales to make up for the time on the phone helping an owner figure out what part they need. Then, there is the fact that owners frequently order the wrong part and when they return it, they grouse about Mooney's restocking charge. Only LASAR seems to have enthusiastically gone after the parts business, but that was with the previous owner and now the inventory seems to have dwindled and the markups have gone up on the parts they order from Mooney. 

Mooneys were pretty much hand built with a lot of changes over the years. So you really need to have the Illustrated Parts Catalog (IPC) and read it carefully because the part number for a part on your airplane might be different than one aircraft serial number before or after. And sometimes the IPC is wrong.

So, when the MSC asks you for a part number, it's kind of a test. Does this owner have any idea what they really need, or are they going to order the wrong part and complain when it doesn't fit? And if you don't know what you need or can't figure it out, then they would prefer you work through a mechanic that knows that stuff so you don't waste their time because they are short handed and have a hangar full of airplanes that need servicing.

[1980Mooney]

2 hours ago, dkkim73 said:

Well, another thing to be concerned with.

What's the best way to get a parts manual and a maintenance manual? Are those factory items? I'm kind of a nerd for good maintenance manuals but, even for cars, they are hard to find sometimes. 

 

2 hours ago, C.J. said:

Right here on Mooneyspace.com - click browse then click downloads. Lots of manuals you can download from there. Hope that helps.

Except that the M20TN IPC (Illustrated Parts Manual) is not in the downloads.  However you can find it in a couple of the discussions in the Acclaim Owners Forum. 

There is a December 2006 version of the M20TN Service and Maintenance Manual incorrectly posted in the Engine Reference Manual section of the Download Forum. (link below)

There is a December 2007 version of the M20TN Illustrated Parts Catalog (IPC) posted in the Acclaim Owners Forum (link below)

As @PT20J says it is best to get it from the Factory with updates but if they are slow to provide it or it is more of an introduction for learning the online versions are a good starting point.

 

 

[1980Mooney]

3 minutes ago, PT20J said:

I've discussed parts sales with a few MSCs and most are unenthusiastic about selling parts to owners. First, Mooney doesn't provide a discount from MSRP, so MSCs all have to set their own markup which means they have to deal with owners shopping multiple MSCs for the lowest price. Second, there isn't enough money in parts sales to make up for the time on the phone helping an owner figure out what part they need. Then, there is the fact that owners frequently order the wrong part and when they return it, they grouse about Mooney's restocking charge. Only LASAR seems to have enthusiastically gone after the parts business, but that was with the previous owner and now the inventory seems to have dwindled and the markups have gone up on the parts they order from Mooney. 

Mooneys were pretty much hand built with a lot of changes over the years. So you really need to have the Illustrated Parts Catalog (IPC) and read it carefully because the part number for a part on your airplane might be different than one aircraft serial number before or after. And sometimes the IPC is wrong.

So, when the MSC asks you for a part number, it's kind of a test. Does this owner have any idea what they really need, or are they going to order the wrong part and complain when it doesn't fit? And if you don't know what you need or can't figure it out, then they would prefer you work through a mechanic that knows that stuff so you don't waste their time because they are short handed and have a hangar full of airplanes that need servicing.

I think a lot of owners here are unrealistic about the entire parts situation.  Time and time again many think there is a market for third parties to start building Mooney specific parts that are slow to come from the Factory.  Many compare it to the classic car era of the 60's-early 70's (models which typically had sales in the 100's of thousands every year).  Look at the numbers.

The OP is looking for parts for a M20G.  There are only 117 registered in the US and another 8 in Canada.  And not all are airworthy and flying.  The parts he needs from time to time may or may not be shared with other models.  And as @PT20J says there were changes made in production of many specific models.

Third parties like McFarlane will chase Cessna 172 because 44,000 have been built - and Piper PA-28 because 33,000 have been built in various flavors.  Mooney? - that is a small market to gear up for.

[PT20J]

According to carfigures.com, Toyoto sold 295,201 Camrys in 2022. One of the reasons airplanes and airplane parts are so expensive is that the economies of scale are just not there. I lucked out when my nose gear leg was damaged by an FBO because Mooney had just built a lot of eight. Probably when Toyota builds parts it’s a lot of 80,000.

[EricJ]

51 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Actually, the best way is to buy them from Mooney. Because if you get them from Mooney, Mooney will update them for free. Why is this important? Because some years back, Mooney stopped revising the documents because revisions require FAA approval. So, with limited staff and money, they stopped doing revisions and just scanned them all into pdf files which Frank Crawford adds comments to as part number or effectivities change without rolling the revision. Theoretically, the notes are just being gathered for the next revision which will never occur. So, there is absolutely no way to know that whatever document you download from the web has all the current updates. Better to get an update from Mooney once a year or so.

There is a technical publications revision list on the mooney.com website.     From a regulatory perspective one should be operating and maintaining from the most recent official release, especially with respect to "FAA Approved" sections like limitations, etc.   Operating or maintaining from an unreleased document could be problematic in certain circumstances, but informational updates can certainly be useful.   I had to recently demonstrate to the FAA that I have the proper maintenance manual for my airplane.   Basically, this list is the reference that they want to see.   It's essentially why the list exists.

https://www.mooney.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/Mooney-Technical-Publications-1.pdf

[PT20J]

Check, for instance the latest revision of the M20J IPC, MAN 226 in the Mooney website revision list. It is 2003. Then read the notes on the cover of the pdf. Basically, there is no revision control on Mooney service documents. I believe MSCs have direct access to the current version, but others do not.

[MB65E]

1 hour ago, PT20J said:

According to carfigures.com, Toyoto sold 295,201 Camrys in 2022. One of the reasons airplanes and airplane parts are so expensive is that the economies of scale are just not there. I lucked out when my nose gear leg was damaged by an FBO because Mooney had just built a lot of eight. Probably when Toyota builds parts it’s a lot of 80,000.

Even Toyota has issues. Took 6mo for a front pax door for our Sequoia last year. Same door as on a Tundra.  Found one is South a Carolina in a box with an older date on it.  This was on a current production vehicle. Let alone an airplane they made less than 200 of 50+ years ago. 
Unless the vendor grew up on the shop floor and now runs parts, you won’t get anything with out a part number. Parts people sit behind a desk and work from a computer. Many have never seen an airplane let alone the part you are trying to describe. 
-Matt

[A64Pilot]

The model if you will for a shop is for you to bring them the airplane, they will procure the part and install it, they aren’t parts houses that’s AC Spruce and others

I’m a little surprised honestly that they even sell parts to the public, I think that will cease in the near future myself.

I had to prepay $1070 for a no back spring to be ordered, a year later I asked for a refund and received it, because there is still no word on when or if they will become available again.

 I don’t see Mooney’s parts problem getting better, and it’s the reason why every now and again I consider selling mine, from the belief that it’s a matter of time before I need some unobtainable part and can’t get it at any price

[LANCECASPER]

On 11/30/2023 at 3:32 PM, Jrags said:

I'm a new Mooney M20G owner and I need a new tach cable.  I called these folks at the Daytona Mooney Service Center to see if they can help me.  I told them what I needed and he said, "Do you have a part number?"  I said no and he said, "I'm useless without a part number.  Call me back when you get a part number."  And the call ended.

I agree he is pretty useless.  I really can't see EVER involving them in my airplane.

Welcome to airplane ownership. There are a few places remaining that either know the number or know where to to look for the part you needed, but as the generation that knew all of that information is retiring, don't expect that to happen.

The age of your airplane is approaching 55 years. If this was a classic car, you as the owner would know more about it than the guy at the parts counter. Even if he could look up what was in there originally, odds are in that many years there may be a different tach with a different cable in there now. If he gave you the original cable - then it's his problem when it isn't the right part number. I don't blame him for wanting the part number from you.

This is just an opportunity to learn about your airplane and get familiar with where to source the different parts you will need. I wouldn't burn any bridges with Mooney Service Centers in your area though, since at one point you might need their resources.

A point that hasn't been addressed - this might be a good time to ditch the mechanical tach and put in an electric one with no need for a "speedometer" cable. Here's an example of one: https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/ei-digitalgraphic1.php

[Yooper Rocketman]

11 hours ago, PT20J said:

I've discussed parts sales with a few MSCs and most are unenthusiastic about selling parts to owners. First, Mooney doesn't provide a discount from MSRP, so MSCs all have to set their own markup which means they have to deal with owners shopping multiple MSCs for the lowest price. Second, there isn't enough money in parts sales to make up for the time on the phone helping an owner figure out what part they need. Then, there is the fact that owners frequently order the wrong part and when they return it, they grouse about Mooney's restocking charge. Only LASAR seems to have enthusiastically gone after the parts business, but that was with the previous owner and now the inventory seems to have dwindled and the markups have gone up on the parts they order from Mooney. 

Mooneys were pretty much hand built with a lot of changes over the years. So you really need to have the Illustrated Parts Catalog (IPC) and read it carefully because the part number for a part on your airplane might be different than one aircraft serial number before or after. And sometimes the IPC is wrong.

So, when the MSC asks you for a part number, it's kind of a test. Does this owner have any idea what they really need, or are they going to order the wrong part and complain when it doesn't fit? And if you don't know what you need or can't figure it out, then they would prefer you work through a mechanic that knows that stuff so you don't waste their time because they are short handed and have a hangar full of airplanes that need servicing.

THIS ^^^^^

I couldn't have said it better!!

My Truck dealership carries $2M in parts inventory.  With Western Star being one of the lowest volume OEM's, we are comparable to the aviation market.  I can't even guess how often (the labor cost) of time required for us to research, find, and order parts for a customer far exceeds the gross profit on the part.  We do it because we desire future (larger) parts sales AND sales of new trucks to these customers (something MSC's do not have as a possible future revenue source).  @Ragsf15e had it right.  Calling after research and finding part numbers will demonstrate that the owner has dedicated some time himself before asking the MSC to look into a part he has no assurance his time will result in a sale (if the part is not available from Mooney or the owner elects to find it someplace else based on price).

That said, I wonder what happened to my mechanical tach cable removed this fall from my Rocket for the glass panel install?  Maybe that would have worked for you.  I will check on it.

Tom

[Jrags]

UPDATE:***** I hear what you are saying about it really being my responsibility.  I agree.  I was more incensed about the No-Help response.  He made no suggestions about how I proceed other than getting a part number.  I going to search the forum for the Illustrated Catalog

  However, with that said, I emailed Don Maxwell Aviation and the very next day I received a phone call, not an email, from Tamara Mace telling me that the part number was superseded by part number SL043-1010 and that McFarland Aviation at 866-920-2741 probably had one.  She had no expectation I was buying it through her company.  Now contrast that with No Help Daytona.  I had also emailed Lasar and they had the part so I ordered it from them ($480 shipped).

I live about 30 miles from Daytona MSC.  Don Maxwell is in Texas.  Now who do you think is going to do my annual in April?  I hear its nice in Texas that time of  year.   It sure won't be done in Daytona!!!!

[Ragsf15e]

4 hours ago, Jrags said:

UPDATE:***** I hear what you are saying about it really being my responsibility.  I agree.  I was more incensed about the No-Help response.  He made no suggestions about how I proceed other than getting a part number.  I going to search the forum for the Illustrated Catalog

  However, with that said, I emailed Don Maxwell Aviation and the very next day I received a phone call, not an email, from Tamara Mace telling me that the part number was superseded by part number SL043-1010 and that McFarland Aviation at 866-920-2741 probably had one.  She had no expectation I was buying it through her company.  Now contrast that with No Help Daytona.  I had also emailed Lasar and they had the part so I ordered it from them ($480 shipped).

I live about 30 miles from Daytona MSC.  Don Maxwell is in Texas.  Now who do you think is going to do my annual in April?  I hear its nice in Texas that time of  year.   It sure won't be done in Daytona!!!!

You did good by calling them. D max is pretty well-known and has helped out lots of people. I have had a similar experience and talked to Don myself for 10 or 15 minutes and he was just trying to help me out. No expectation of anything else. I guess what I’m saying is you won’t find that everywhere. It’s still fun having an airplane, just be ready to be involved in the maintenance.

[Yooper Rocketman]

23 hours ago, Jrags said:

UPDATE:***** I hear what you are saying about it really being my responsibility.  I agree.  I was more incensed about the No-Help response.  He made no suggestions about how I proceed other than getting a part number.  I going to search the forum for the Illustrated Catalog

  However, with that said, I emailed Don Maxwell Aviation and the very next day I received a phone call, not an email, from Tamara Mace telling me that the part number was superseded by part number SL043-1010 and that McFarland Aviation at 866-920-2741 probably had one.  She had no expectation I was buying it through her company.  Now contrast that with No Help Daytona.  I had also emailed Lasar and they had the part so I ordered it from them ($480 shipped).

I live about 30 miles from Daytona MSC.  Don Maxwell is in Texas.  Now who do you think is going to do my annual in April?  I hear it’s nice in Texas that time of  year.   It sure won't be done in Daytona!!!!

My primary Mooney parts suppliers are Don Maxwell and Laser.  They ARE above average on service.   I do almost all my own service work so rare I need an MSC for anything other than parts.  Your case shows a bad experience in the parts department can cost the service department future revenue.  
 

If that customer experience was ever brought to my attention, in my dealership, my parts tech would be having a closed door discussion with me.  One thing I AM CAREFUL WITH though, is I never burn bridges with ANY customers or suppliers.  I never know when I may need them down the road, in spite of a bad experience.  
 

Tom

[Aerodon]

On 11/30/2023 at 1:32 PM, Jrags said:

I'm a new Mooney M20G owner and I need a new tach cable.  I called these folks at the Daytona Mooney Service Center to see if they can help me.  I told them what I needed and he said, "Do you have a part number?"  I said no and he said, "I'm useless without a part number.  Call me back when you get a part number."  And the call ended.

I agree he is pretty useless.  I really can't see EVER involving them in my airplane.

I'm not so sure I would take such a hard line.  I think it is every owners interest to get a parts manual and be pretty proficient in reading it and arriving at a part number.  Don't expect to pick up the phone and have someone do 30 minutes of research for an unknown customer, only to have him say thanks and go off and find it on the net.

Do develop a relationship with a MSC, then they will be more inclined to take you seriously when you ask for a part  number.  And like many businesses, they are in the business of providing parts and labor to try cover their overhead, so don't be too surprised if they show no interest in helping you buy a part with no discussion on installing it.  

And supplying parts is a nightmare, it takes a lot to keep up with revisions, supersede parts numbers etc.  Get it right, you make $50, get it wrong, you get an irate customer and lose $500. 

Online shopping has changed the world, and I think we need to adjust our expectations, especially with a manufacturer that is struggling.

Aerodon

 

[Jetpilot86]

On 12/1/2023 at 11:56 AM, Jrags said:

UPDATE:***** I hear what you are saying about it really being my responsibility.  I agree.  I was more incensed about the No-Help response.  He made no suggestions about how I proceed other than getting a part number.  I going to search the forum for the Illustrated Catalog

  However, with that said, I emailed Don Maxwell Aviation and the very next day I received a phone call, not an email, from Tamara Mace telling me that the part number was superseded by part number SL043-1010 and that McFarland Aviation at 866-920-2741 probably had one.  She had no expectation I was buying it through her company.  Now contrast that with No Help Daytona.  I had also emailed Lasar and they had the part so I ordered it from them ($480 shipped).

I live about 30 miles from Daytona MSC.  Don Maxwell is in Texas.  Now who do you think is going to do my annual in April?  I hear its nice in Texas that time of  year.   It sure won't be done in Daytona!!!!

Mine makes the FLL-GGG pilgrimage in January. 

[PT20J]

39 minutes ago, Jetpilot86 said:

Mine makes the FLL-GGG pilgrimage in January. 

How far ahead is Don booking annuals now? When I was there is April he was really backed up.