Flying with oxygen : recommended also for 20.000 plus feet?

[exM20K]

I'm very fond of the boom canula, too.

https://www.mhoxygen.com/product/cannula-e-z-breathe-ii-eds/

Be aware, though, that this brings several more connections that can fail or disconnect (with the quick release), and if you're a Bose A20 user, it's very hard to get the mounting ball to adhere to the headset. 

O2D2 and equipment are IMHO well worth the cost / convenience; I fly 200 hours a year, much of it at 16-17,000, and I refill the tank maybe once a year.

-dan

[Austintatious]

54 minutes ago, ilovecornfields said:

https://www.mhoxygen.com/product/o2d2-x-str/

Yeap... and @Yooper Rocketman you should have scott connectors....  But verify it!

 

Ill bet you can go back and forth from Florida 6 times on a tank with this... and I don't even know where in the US you live.

Edited April 26, 2023 by Austintatious

[Pinecone]

Another thumbs up for the O2D2 unit. 

[Fly Boomer]

2 hours ago, Yooper Rocketman said:

I have Oxygen saving canula's I bought back around 2001.  I think what you are talking about is a much better system.  Can you point me out to the exact link on Mountain High's website that you recommend for the Mooney Rocket built in O2 system?  I can't make a trip to Florida and back on one tank of O2.  Maybe I could with the system you are using.

Tom

As others have pointed out, it should be the BNC/Scott adapter, and you must have the in-line regulator.  The O2D2 won't tolerate "line" pressure.

[donkaye, MCFI]

Again for balance: O2D2 = A big thumbs downs for me.  I want to know how anyone using it is getting any more than a 93% O2 saturation with it.  I certainly couldn't and I tried.

[Pinecone]

I forget, did you try the mask range settings?  Did you call them?

[donkaye, MCFI]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

I forget, did you try the mask range settings?  Did you call them?

I tried all settings.  Have others been able to get 96% saturation on the lower settings, or for that matter any setting?

[larryb]

     I don't shoot for 96 as my target, but no problems getting into the 94-95 range. I use the lowest setting for up to 12,500 and up two clicks for flights higher up to 18,000. 

 

     I use the MH OxyArm on my Bose headset. I found the tape mounting inadequate so used JB weld to attach the ball to the headset.  That will last at least 2-3 years before I have to reattach it.

 

     For me it's not so much the cost of the O2 fills as it is the convenience. I can go a year on my built-in tank with every single flight using O2. I'll never have to fill away from home.

 

 

 

[ilovecornfields]

1 hour ago, donkaye said:

I tried all settings.  Have others been able to get 96% saturation on the lower settings, or for that matter any setting?

I can get 96% but usually have to use the “mask” setting above 12-13k’. I don’t fly as high as you do so for me it works well.

I also use the big bore cannulas or whatever they’re called. Seems to dilute the incoming oxygen less.

[Pinecone]

15 hours ago, larryb said:

 I use the MH OxyArm on my Bose headset. I found the tape mounting inadequate so used JB weld to attach the ball to the headset.  That will last at least 2-3 years before I have to reattach it.

I would get a small tube of 3M 5200 and use that to attach the ball.  If you need to remove it, you can pull a piece of fine wire or cord to cut the mastic, otherwise it will hold for years and years.

I used it to attach a boom mic on my helmet of track instruction.  I did it about 4 years ago, and it is still hold strong.  And that helmet lives in my trunk, bouncing around. 

[Austintatious]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

I would get a small tube of 3M 5200 and use that to attach the ball.  If you need to remove it, you can pull a piece of fine wire or cord to cut the mastic, otherwise it will hold for years and years.

I used it to attach a boom mic on my helmet of track instruction.  I did it about 4 years ago, and it is still hold strong.  And that helmet lives in my trunk, bouncing around. 

I used hot glue... ROCK solid and no long drying time... I did slightly heat up the metal ball before putting the glue on it to promote better adhesion.. I also cleaned the headset with alcohol. 

Has not budged.

Edited April 27, 2023 by Austintatious

[James McDiarmid]

Hi all! I’m late to this discussion - I’m a medical doctor originally an ovation 2GX owner but last year started operating an acclaim out of the southwest UK.
The acclaim performance is so good up high that I often climb up high and use O2.
I like the O2D2 system very much but my experience is that it needs to be turned up above ‘normal’ if going above the mid teens, particularly if venturing above FL180. Usually one of the F (FAT!) settings gets my sats up into the 90s - I’m a fairly fit 57 years old, 90kg and 6ft tall (so not morbidly obese) but I’ve always noticed cognitive impairment above 8000ft altitude.
I got into the habit of carrying a supplementary O2 size E cylinder when I first got my acclaim as the built in O2 had a leak. It’s a habit I’ve kept up even after having had the leak repaired because of the major inconvenience of having the onboard tank refilled. We just rotate the E cylinder through the hospital O2 supply and it’s inexpensive and very convenient. Having 2 tanks also adds redundancy although the cabin tank should be secured in place.
I also bought a couple of high altitude masks from mountain high with built in microphones (for $$$). There are 3 sizes and it’s important to select the one that will best fit your face. Above FL200 the mask gives me a better O2 saturation than cannulas but the microphone was absolutely terrible… ATC gave it 1/5 - (it’s a David Clarke mic wired through a Bose adapter) I ended up reverting to the original Bose mic and tucking it inside the mask - it worked just fine with no significant leak. It may just have been a QC issue with the built in DC mic but my advice is to just buy the regular high altitude masks without the mic and tuck your headset mic in.
Anyway… happy flying!


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[Marc_B]

I think the big take home point is that everyone responds differently to various oxygen equipment, different flight levels, and even from day to day (hydration, caffeine, poor sleep, overall health etc.)

High flight and oxygen use is a risk that can be mitigated and minimized with proper planning. But it will never be zero like pretty much everything flying. 

I consider pulse oximeters and hypoxia training to be minimum price of entry. How can you know that you’re becoming hypoxic if you don’t understand what that looks like. How can you verify minor changes if you aren’t routinely monitoring your flow, pulse ox and equipment?

Regarding cannulas above 18,000 or when to start using oxygen the FARs are a starting point but you should verify this yourself with the equipment you intend to use. From what I understand, the FARs were originally designed to allow the GA pilot to navigate mountain passes effectively without oxygen in most GA aircraft. But 12,500 feet or 14,000 feet is not a minimum physiological standard. Some people are fine WELL above that and some are not so good WELL below it. 

Best thing is take a buddy and a pulse ox up and verify how it affects you. With a nasal cannula I start to need increasing flow rates above 16-17k and its really ineffective above 18k…even it if was “legal” for me it’s a no go. The higher you go the lower partial pressure of oxygen is, without a nose and mouth covering you entrain more low oxygen content air with each breath. At a certain point it’s like adding only a spoonful of mix to a gallon of water and thinking you’re making lemonade. 

For me the MH O2D2 works well with a boom cannula on D10 (delayed turn on at 10k) up to 16k. At 16k I turn to F1 (lowest face mask setting) up to 18k. I use the MH mask above that and had to tweak the mic to get it passable and it’s still not as good as boom mic. But for me the MH mask on F1 is excellent for oxygen sat and keeps me at 98% at FL250. 

Get a CO detector and get a pulse ox (I keep one in my flight bag and a second hung always on the prop knob). And get good ones (or two!). As a doc I feel that anyone flying above 10k should have a pulse ox, for them and their pax use. But KNOW how to use it, how it works for you and what the limitations are. And get in a habit of using it regularly both for habit and for forming your baseline. It will make recognizing deviations a little easier. 

[Schllc]

3 hours ago, Marc_B said:

I think the big take home point is that everyone responds differently to various oxygen equipment, different flight levels, and even from day to day (hydration, caffeine, poor sleep, overall health etc.)

This is important and I agree about the pulse oximeter. 
I use the conservers by setting to the next highest to the altitude that I am flying. 
and adjust based on saturations.  I am usually above 96% with a cannula up to 20k, but I don’t feel comfortable flying that way long. One of the reasons I stay 19 or lower for the majority of the time. 

[James McDiarmid]

100% agree re pulse-oximetry… I also carry 2 and monitor regularly. Marc, how did you tweak the mic in your alps mask to get it to work? I’m about to return mine to MH.


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[donkaye, MCFI]

19 hours ago, Marc_B said:

I think the big take home point is that everyone responds differently to various oxygen equipment, different flight levels, and even from day to day (hydration, caffeine, poor sleep, overall health etc.)

High flight and oxygen use is a risk that can be mitigated and minimized with proper planning. But it will never be zero like pretty much everything flying. 

I consider pulse oximeters and hypoxia training to be minimum price of entry. How can you know that you’re becoming hypoxic if you don’t understand what that looks like. How can you verify minor changes if you aren’t routinely monitoring your flow, pulse ox and equipment?

Regarding cannulas above 18,000 or when to start using oxygen the FARs are a starting point but you should verify this yourself with the equipment you intend to use. From what I understand, the FARs were originally designed to allow the GA pilot to navigate mountain passes effectively without oxygen in most GA aircraft. But 12,500 feet or 14,000 feet is not a minimum physiological standard. Some people are fine WELL above that and some are not so good WELL below it. 

Best thing is take a buddy and a pulse ox up and verify how it affects you. With a nasal cannula I start to need increasing flow rates above 16-17k and its really ineffective above 18k…even it if was “legal” for me it’s a no go. The higher you go the lower partial pressure of oxygen is, without a nose and mouth covering you entrain more low oxygen content air with each breath. At a certain point it’s like adding only a spoonful of mix to a gallon of water and thinking you’re making lemonade. 

For me the MH O2D2 works well with a boom cannula on D10 (delayed turn on at 10k) up to 16k. At 16k I turn to F1 (lowest face mask setting) up to 18k. I use the MH mask above that and had to tweak the mic to get it passable and it’s still not as good as boom mic. But for me the MH mask on F1 is excellent for oxygen sat and keeps me at 98% at FL250. 

Get a CO detector and get a pulse ox (I keep one in my flight bag and a second hung always on the prop knob). And get good ones (or two!). As a doc I feel that anyone flying above 10k should have a pulse ox, for them and their pax use. But KNOW how to use it, how it works for you and what the limitations are. And get in a habit of using it regularly both for habit and for forming your baseline. It will make recognizing deviations a little easier. 

I really wish I could have gotten the MH O2D2 to work in my airplane.  The most O2 Saturation I could get with it even on the highest setting was 93% and I need at least 96% to feel normal.  My problem very likely was the altitude compensating regulator that is included in the Bravo.  I had to send the unit back.  O2 is reasonably inexpensive so I turn it on above 7,000 feet during the day, and from the ground up at night, since night vision is greatly effected by lack of O2.

[dkkim73]

1 hour ago, donkaye said:

I really wish I could have gotten the MH O2D2 to work in my airplane. 

I've been very curious ever since reading your PIREP. For a number of reasons, I did get the O2D2 system and tested it for the first time 2 weeks on a repositioning flight. It "seemed" to work great; I have noticable but benign hypoxic cues early on, I felt no issues at 12-13K, where usually I can tell something has changed when off the hose. Unfortunately my pulse ox batteries were dead! Teachable moment, felt like an idiot with no spares in my bag.

The flow in the nozzles was pretty perceptible, and the mask seemed also to draw well. So I think the regulated pressure is probably appropriate with the reducer. If I can find my old car gear I'll try to get measurements at some point. 

I hope to test further (incl. higher on the way bast east-bound) and get some more solid data to share. My plane has the Scott/Avox system.  

This whole thread is very thought-provoking. Ray's anecdote is telling... @Schllc thanks for the candor and so glad it worked out ok. Fate is the hunter, and all that... yikes. 

In my situation, kinking or disconnecting a hose while single-pilot would be the biggest risk I think. One of the used cannulas I inherited was aged and had a natural kink near the flowmeter; saw that early on. Or a leak-down of the inflight system, but that would seem pretty unlikely as long as it was checked on the ground. 

I also got the Aithre continuous pulse-ox unit, haven't got it to read reliably, need to test it further. I would like to find something like that that is less iPad and USB dependent. Might try to get an old medical unit and use a fingertip-tape type pickup. 

D

[dzeleski]

1 hour ago, donkaye said:

I really wish I could have gotten the MH O2D2 to work in my airplane.  The most O2 Saturation I could get with it even on the highest setting was 93% and I need at least 96% to feel normal.  My problem very likely was the altitude compensating regulator that is included in the Bravo.  I had to send the unit back.  O2 is reasonably inexpensive so I turn it on above 7,000 feet during the day, and from the ground up at night, since night vision is greatly effected by lack of O2.

I don't fly nearly as high as you do but I did get my J up to 16k a few months ago and had to switch to a mask and the highest F mode to get my O2 back. I live at 20ft MSL so my body is not used to higher altitudes at all but it did get me back into the high 90s without issues. Granted though I do not have an installed system its a portable system, but it is capable of working the way you are asking assuming things are working correctly. Did you call them with the issue? They actually have really good support and its possible something was wrong with the system. Its possible your regulator is much lower pressure then the standard regulator that they ship from MH and your bravo needs a slightly different adjusted one from MH or you may not even need one if the pressure is low enough. See the attached screenshot if you have not seen it. Basically in short if your system already provides 16-20 psi you dont need that extra regulator most likely.

That being said, since I live at sea level I started using O2 anytime Im cruising above 6k. I feel a hell of a lot less tired after a full day of flying and im not nearly as irritable either. Im 32, 170lbs and in good shape. I keep the O2D2 set to D5 when I plan on flying for more then an hour or two.

[Marc_B]

Moral of the story:  with any equipment you should know failure modes and have a backup...backup battery, oxygen/tubing backup, backup plan.  And realize that none of the pulse demand systems are mandatory use if you have a backup mask/cannula.  But the benefit of oxygen conservation is real.

One other point worth mentioning...for me, I like the pulse of oxygen.  It's noticeable, but not annoying for me.  If it disappeared, I would notice.  (certainly you can spin reasons that I might not, but in general)  Without oxygen flow, pulses would disappear.  I also like the pulse because it doesn't dry out my nose and sinuses near as much as continuous delivery.

I always have my boom cannula, tubing for the o2d2, and a back up cannula in a bag in the seat back pocket of my pilot seat.  Easy to grab if issues.

Also worth discussing is where you most frequently fly...for me it's high teens with occasional flight in FL.  But mostly around 16-20K.  This is the sweet spot for me for glide ring, safety options, oxygen conservation.... YMMV.

[PeteMc]

1 hour ago, dzeleski said:

I don't fly nearly as high as you do but I did get my J up to 16k a few months ago and had to switch to a mask and the highest F mode to get my O2 back. I live at 20ft MSL so my body is not used to higher altitudes at all but it did get me back into the high 90s without issues.

I used to live at SL for years, I would just turn my Oxymizer flow up a bit (maybe 500' or so) and never had a problem.  If you can control your flow, you might try that.

 

[Raffi]

Thank you all for sharing this useful and maybe life saving information. I haven't been around on the space for some while with a simple reason: I bought a mooney bravo! A mechanical good plane with some esthetic work being done. I'm filming and taking pictures of the whole makeover. New seats, carpet , partial respray... I'll make a post about it. Meanwhile a preview...

Keep posting! 

[jlunseth]

@wombat, et al. The problem with interpreting regs the way  the pilot wants to, or even based on what the language of the regulation appears to plainly say, is that it does not work that way. There is a doctrine called "Chevron deference" (named after a Supreme Court case) that says that whatever understanding or interpretation the regulating body (here, the FAA) applies to the regulation is the correct interpretation unless it is arbitrary or capricious. "Arbitrary and capricious" is a very high bar. In short, if a regulatory body such as the FAA issues a regulation, it gets to say what the regulation means, not you and me, or other pilots who may have to operate under the regulation, or even the Federal courts. The result has been some really crazy interpretations of regulations as regulatory bodies seek to expand their authority and jurisdiction, and the Courts have felt bound not to interfere. There has been speculation that Chevron deference will be limited by the Supreme Court and that perhaps Chevron itself will be overturned, but today that is not the case. 

In other words, if you were in an accident because you failed to use a mask above 18k it would not matter much what neat arguments you could come up with about the language and structure of the regulations, or how a reasonable pilots would understand them, the FAA's understanding of them would apply. Thus, for example, if the agency said that, to be airworthy  under 23.1441 et seq,, the aircraft must have a functioning O2 mask for the pilot, and therefore to fly such an aircraft above 18k the pilot must use the approved equipment, then that interpretation would be the governing interpretation. The FAA brochure pretty much says that is the case. And the FAA could reasonably conclude that 1441 is not limited to aircraft "certified" under part 23 because 1441 is broader than that, it covers an "airplane [that is] is approved for operations at or above altitudes where oxygen is required to be used by the operating rules... ." 

Don't get mad at me, I am just the messenger. When I first looked at those regs I had the same thought, that nothing in the regs requires the pilot to use a mask above 18k, the regs simply require that one be on board. But it is likely that the FAA would not see it that way.

If you have a concern you could write a letter to the FAA's Office of General Counsel and request a formal interpretation.