Things to consider before making offer on M20J that has 2800 hours on the engine

[DHave]

New pilot that is considering purchasing my first plane. Without giving too much information away, the plane I’m looking at has averaged 105 hrs/yr but is 800 hrs past TBO. Most recent compressions were all 72 or higher, so I would be curious to hear from the group what I might be overlooking if I pursued my interest in this particular plane. Thanks in advance.

[toto]

Others will have more specific engine recommendations, but my advice would be to get a good prebuy, budget for an overhaul, and fly the heck out of it.

I ran an O-360 to 2500 hours before overhauling purely because I was getting superstitious about borrowed time. The engine never ran better after the overhaul than it did at 2500 hours, and I sort of regretted not waiting until it was making metal. 

Unless you’ve got a flight to Honolulu planned, I can’t think of any reason not to buy it and fly it if the price is right. 

[Ragsf15e]

As long as they’re pricing it as runout, it’s fine to buy and see what you can get from it.  If it’s 2800 hours and priced like a 300 hour engine just because it’s still running good, then it’s not a great deal.  It will need an oh sooner rather than later.

[KSMooniac]

Concur with above... If it's been averaging 100+ hours per year for at least the last 5, I wouldn't hesitate so long as it is priced as a runout. I would thoroughly check the records to make sure the mag(s) have less than 500 hrs since inspection. The rest is good on condition, and running regularly is better than sitting!

Sent from my LM-V600 using Tapatalk

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard DH!

+1 on Toto’s, Rag’s, and Scott’s recommendations…

I would prefer one that was OH’d more recently, and had fewer hours…

A lower cost engine OH… requires the crank and cam to be in Serviceable condition… 

things like starters, alternators, and fuel systems may be pretty worn too….

My first Mooney was 30+years old on its third motor OH… before I got it…

Having it sit idle was probably terrible for its health… it also lived outside.

 

Many technical people would love this opportunity, and prefer to buy this plane and start the OH program of their choice…

Don’t buy this plane… if saving money is the goal…. Engines can go to 3k hours….   But, they usually don’t do it slowly at 100hrs per year… that’s 30 years… 

Compression is a good measurement for cylinder health… but doesn’t tell you anything about the cam and crank bearing surfaces health…

As a new pilot, and a new owner… how familiar are you with engine maintenance… do you like to swap parts out of your car’s engine, you recognize when your Chevy 350’s timing is off, because your quarter mike time is a bit long?

If you dig measuring 0 - 60 times…. You will love collecting T/O times and distances…

If performance measurement isn’t your thing… buy it because you look forward to the OH process…. 

Just don’t buy it hoping it will go to 2900 hrs next year… Hope is a terrible flight plan!

What is your intention for the new 2U plane, with a very worn in engine?

Go (whole) Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

[ArtVandelay]

Compressions don’t give you a complete picture of the condition of an engine. You could still have valve issues, cam issues, etc.

[RoundTwo]

I would ask the owner if they they did oil analysis and if so, can you get the results to look at. If it’s been flying recently, ask if you can swap a new oil filter for the one on the plane so you can have it cut open to inspect for metal.

[Shadrach]

As has been said, Price the engine as runout. During prebuy, it is perfectly acceptable to use non invasive measures to verify engine condition. Borescope cylinders, dial cam lift (takes significant wear before it will show here) Cut filter. If lifters are shedding metal, it will be visible in the oil filter. You can also send the oil out for analysis if you can find a company that will expedite the report for prebuy. 
 

Honestly, if it’s run as frequently as you say, it may go for 1000s of hours more. There is no reason it shouldn’t. I’ve always thought of TBO as kind of an arbitrary number.  I’d like to see the data that led to the 2000hr number.

[Pinecone]

And realize the prices for engines.

Right now, a factory new IO-360 is about $90,000.

A factory reman engine is about $55,000

And factory overhauled engine is about $48,000.

You also have the option of going to the IO-390.

And there are other costs.  Labor to remove and replace.  Typically you will replace the hoses at the same time.   

Also, having the motor mount inspected and possibly repaired.  According to the paperwork, when they replaced the engine in mine, the motor mount was "repaired" by replacing every tube except one.

[DHave]

8 hours ago, toto said:

Others will have more specific engine recommendations, but my advice would be to get a good prebuy, budget for an overhaul, and fly the heck out of it.

I ran an O-360 to 2500 hours before overhauling purely because I was getting superstitious about borrowed time. The engine never ran better after the overhaul than it did at 2500 hours, and I sort of regretted not waiting until it was making metal. 

Unless you’ve got a flight to Honolulu planned, I can’t think of any reason not to buy it and fly it if the price is right. 

Those were my initial thoughts as well. Thanks for the feedback.

[DHave]

59 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

And realize the prices for engines.

Right now, a factory new IO-360 is about $90,000.

A factory reman engine is about $55,000

And factory overhauled engine is about $48,000.

You also have the option of going to the IO-390.

And there are other costs.  Labor to remove and replace.  Typically you will replace the hoses at the same time.   

Also, having the motor mount inspected and possibly repaired.  According to the paperwork, when they replaced the engine in mine, the motor mount was "repaired" by replacing every tube except one.

Very good points above. I’m right in the middle of doing the comparison of factory reman vs OH vs going with the IO-390 (that is clearly another topic for another day).

Thank you for your input.

[Fly Boomer]

19 hours ago, DHave said:

New pilot that is considering purchasing my first plane. Without giving too much information away, the plane I’m looking at has averaged 105 hrs/yr but is 800 hrs past TBO. Most recent compressions were all 72 or higher, so I would be curious to hear from the group what I might be overlooking if I pursued my interest in this particular plane. Thanks in advance.

To determine if it's priced as a runout, be as precise as possible when determining the cost of engine replacement (reman, overhaul, new, whatever).  The price should be market value with mid-time engine minus all-in price for engine replacement.  I have seen nice-looking airplanes priced way below market, but not enough below market to pay for engine replacement.  It's easy to gloss over the price of a new engine, without considering the very large cost of getting it on the airplane, and getting the airplane flying again.

[EricJ]

21 hours ago, DHave said:

New pilot that is considering purchasing my first plane. Without giving too much information away, the plane I’m looking at has averaged 105 hrs/yr but is 800 hrs past TBO. Most recent compressions were all 72 or higher, so I would be curious to hear from the group what I might be overlooking if I pursued my interest in this particular plane. Thanks in advance.

If it had an IRAN (teardown, rebuild) as a result of a prop strike or something, it could have been essentially rebuilt/overhauled but not counted as an overhaul and not reset TBO.   This would explain the high time and still be running well, or it could just have been well-maintained and operated and is still healthy.   That's the sort of thing you could find out by looking into the maintenance records, though, or maybe even just asking the owner or maintainer.

That was the case when I bought my airplane.   It had 1400 hours since "overhaul", and so was priced according to that, but the engine only had 40 hours since a full IRAN which included all new bearings, rehoned and rebuilt cylinders, new propeller, etc.   It didn't count as an overhaul, though.   Those kinds of deals are good to find.

[hammdo]

This is mine exactly. 700 since IRAN - power center overhauled/ADs done but the cylinders were IRAN (first run Lycoming Nitride cylinders on  factory rebuilt - had ~1300  hrs when IRAN). Nothing wrong with that now ~2100 hrs since official overhaul and she seems happy. Burns a quart of oil every ~8-9 hours…

-Don

[carusoam]

Planning for a forever-plane?

Finances get distributed over a verrrrry long time…

The IO390 is nice because of its roller cam followers….

A nice way to avoid grinding lobes off the cam… an issue that comes up once a year around here… not really common, but too common if your cam sheds a lobe…

 

Inflation calcs are a drag… hopefully the income keeps up…

I went factory reman… after the ground struck my plane while I was 20 miles away… planned the upgrade since I was in there already…. 

Best regards,

-a-

[201er]

Keep in mind that it’s not just the cost but also the time the plane will have to be down for overhaul. Could take half a year. This can happen with any airplane, but in this case something you should be expecting.

[hubcap]

If you want to fly…buy a plane with a low to mid-time engine and a panel you can live with for the foreseeable future….otherwise plan on 6 months for a panel upgrade or an engine overhaul.

[carusoam]

Keep in mind…

201er was young once…  

he bought a nice J, for a young guy…

And… gained a lot of knowledge about IO360 cam health issues…?

Old fuzzy memories…

-a-

[DHave]

16 hours ago, carusoam said:

Welcome aboard DH!

+1 on Toto’s, Rag’s, and Scott’s recommendations…

I would prefer one that was OH’d more recently, and had fewer hours…

A lower cost engine OH… requires the crank and cam to be in Serviceable condition… 

things like starters, alternators, and fuel systems may be pretty worn too….

My first Mooney was 30+years old on its third motor OH… before I got it…

Having it sit idle was probably terrible for its health… it also lived outside.

 

Many technical people would love this opportunity, and prefer to buy this plane and start the OH program of their choice…

Don’t buy this plane… if saving money is the goal…. Engines can go to 3k hours….   But, they usually don’t do it slowly at 100hrs per year… that’s 30 years… 

Compression is a good measurement for cylinder health… but doesn’t tell you anything about the cam and crank bearing surfaces health…

As a new pilot, and a new owner… how familiar are you with engine maintenance… do you like to swap parts out of your car’s engine, you recognize when your Chevy 350’s timing is off, because your quarter mike time is a bit long?

If you dig measuring 0 - 60 times…. You will love collecting T/O times and distances…

If performance measurement isn’t your thing… buy it because you look forward to the OH process…. 

Just don’t buy it hoping it will go to 2900 hrs next year… Hope is a terrible flight plan!

What is your intention for the new 2U plane, with a very worn in engine?

Go (whole) Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

I’m not real familiar with engine maintenance….at least doing it myself. I’m definitely not the guy that is spending his downtime swapping parts out of my vehicle’s engine. I think the route that would provide me the most peace of mind would be a factory reman. Thanks for the welcoming words. 

[DHave]

5 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

To determine if it's priced as a runout, be as precise as possible when determining the cost of engine replacement (reman, overhaul, new, whatever).  The price should be market value with mid-time engine minus all-in price for engine replacement.  I have seen nice-looking airplanes priced way below market, but not enough below market to pay for engine replacement.  It's easy to gloss over the price of a new engine, without considering the very large cost of getting it on the airplane, and getting the airplane flying again.

Thank you for the breakdown above. Very helpful.

[DHave]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

Planning for a forever-plane?

Finances get distributed over a verrrrry long time…

The IO390 is nice because of its roller cam followers….

A nice way to avoid grinding lobes off the cam… an issue that comes up once a year around here… not really common, but too common if your cam sheds a lobe…

 

Inflation calcs are a drag… hopefully the income keeps up…

I went factory reman… after the ground struck my plane while I was 20 miles away… planned the upgrade since I was in there already…. 

Best regards,

-a-

My plan is to have it for 1000-1500 hours to continue to build time. Then I would like to step up to something more suited for mountain travel.

[carusoam]

6 minutes ago, DHave said:

I’m not real familiar with engine maintenance….at least doing it myself. I’m definitely not the guy that is spending his downtime swapping parts out of my vehicle’s engine. I think the route that would provide me the most peace of mind would be a factory reman. Thanks for the welcoming words. 

Having innate engine knowledge isn’t required…

But it sure helps discussing what you need/want done with your mechanic…

plenty can be learned by reading about other MSer engine challenges as they come up…

 

Buying a fully worn out engine…Shift the learning process into overdrive…

 

 

Best regards,

-a-

[PT20J]

If it is a really clean airframe, I'd negotiate the best discount I could get for the runout engine, but I would only buy it if I had the money in the bank to replace the engine because there is really no way to know when it will need to be replaced. But, I'd want a really thorough pre-purchase inspection because if there are other issues, this airplane could get expensive fast. The advantage of buying an airplane with a runout engine is that you get to determine the quality of the replacement. I did this when I bought a really well cared for 1994 M20J with under 1200 hours and questionable engine. The engine gave up less than 50 hours after purchase and I put a factory rebuilt on it. However, be aware that in the current market it's harder to get a big discount, and also the good engine shops and Lycoming factory have long lead times.

Skip

[Pinecone]

13 hours ago, 201er said:

Keep in mind that it’s not just the cost but also the time the plane will have to be down for overhaul. Could take half a year. This can happen with any airplane, but in this case something you should be expecting.

That is why I quoted factory engine prices.  You can order the engine, only have about 1 week downtime for the swap, once the replacement is in hand.

For a field overhaul, by a GOOD shop, yes, it can be many months before you get the engine back.

[ArtVandelay]

For further details, I think this the one we’re talking about:

https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/198461115/1978-mooney-m20j-201-piston-single-aircraft


BTW, I would plan on overhauling the prop and governor. My 78’s governor was so old and parts out of date, they just replaced it with another one.