Prebuy recommendations/advice

[Danb]

No matter the look, year, apparent loveliness of the plane only 300+ hours get a fricken PPI, at a competent facility. The PPI on my 2016Acclaim turned up numerous items, thank goodness I didn’t get it done at the MSC in Calgary. Inspect the logs, if you see a $1700 annual with no parts oil or anything else be wary of the annual. That’s near $1100 USA money. If you don’t see oil changes in their journey logs hmmm.

On the other hand my Bravo had a recent annual, the PPI was done at C&W in North New Jersey, it took weeks basically a month to discover items that I know were bogus at that point you swallow the cost of said items or walk. I went to there shop it was stuffed with Bo’s, c models other brands no Mooney’s …Beware of said shop I won’t get into bad mouthing the MSC if anyone desires more info contact me off record. We have enough  shops but apparently we seem to be losing quality mechanics. 
Tale of two PPIs at different shops with vastly different results. Our  local Canadian shop run by Clarence is by far not the norm, I wish he was in the US it would be an easy choice to get competent quality work, it’s rare and difficult to find such shops.  

 

[Utah20Gflyer]

On 3/6/2023 at 6:37 AM, JayMatt said:

When you get a pre-buy, make sure you get a second opinion. Pay someone to fly it around maybe but I highly suggest you look at it yourself with them and go over all the problems. 3 people looked at mine because I had surface corrosion. I was well aware I would be painting it when I bought it. I wanted to make dead sure there was no corrosion anywhere else that mattered and there wasn't. If I were to do it all over again I'd go out and look for myself. 

I had a PPI done and also paid an extremely experienced Mooney CFI to test fly the plane and give me a list of squawks.  I paid 1800 for the PPI which turned out to be a complete waste of money.  I paid the CFI 250 to test fly it and that was the best 250 I’ve ever spent.  The test flight turned out to be much more valuable than the Prebuy.  I’m sure it’s not that way in many circumstances but that’s how it turned out for me.  
 

If I was to do it over I would only do a prebuy if I was able to work side by side with the mechanic, otherwise I just don’t think it’s going to be worth anything.   I guess I lost my trust in mechanics I don’t know. 

[McMooney]

Honestly, i just paid for an annual, better out $3k then $$$$$ the heck with a prebuy.  

biggest instruction was to inspect for corrosion as that's the one thing that money may not be able  tfix.

[Danb]

11 minutes ago, McMooney said:

Honestly, i just paid for an annual, better out $3k then $$$$$ the heck with a prebuy.  

biggest instruction was to inspect for corrosion as that's the one thing that money may not be able  tfix.

How about you buying a plane that had a paper annual without your knowledge, it’s naive to think everyone takes care of an airplane like you do and have, I almost made a huge mistake buying a beautiful near new Acclaim under 400 hours always in a climate controlled hanger, why get s prebuy and waste my money? Because the prebuy on a near new plane was in excess of $50,000 a tough pill to swallow without doing your due diligence. Trust me many people do not take care of their plane properly. The PPI was 3 pages, on a2016 plane. THE HECK WITH A PREBUY..

[McMooney]

2 minutes ago, Danb said:

How about you buying a plane that had a paper annual without your knowledge, it’s naive to think everyone takes care of an airplane like you do and have, I almost made a huge mistake buying a beautiful near new Acclaim under 400 hours always in a climate controlled hanger, why get s prebuy and waste my money? Because the prebuy on a near new plane was in excess of $50,000 a tough pill to swallow without doing your due diligence. Trust me many people do not take care of their plane properly. The PPI was 3 pages, on a2016 plane. THE HECK WITH A PREBUY..

hmmm, if i could afford the acclaim 50k might be worth it 8). 

[jetdriven]

How in the living hell did a pre-buy cost $50,000? I mean I've seen $3000 prebuys  and the list of repairs that were substantial  but how do you spend that much money looking at something? 

[Danb]

2 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

How in the living hell did a pre-buy cost $50,000? I mean I've seen $3000 prebuys  and the list of repairs that were substantial  but how do you spend that much money looking at something? 

Start with a top o/h I’d tell you rest in private DB

[jetdriven]

I mean if you guys found 50,000 bucks of stuff wrong with the plane then I think the pre-buy was the best money You ever spent because you get the seller to buy that instead of you. Please send me the rest of it by PM I want to read it as well I'm always learning. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Danb said:

How about you buying a plane that had a paper annual without your knowledge, it’s naive to think everyone takes care of an airplane like you do and have, I almost made a huge mistake buying a beautiful near new Acclaim under 400 hours always in a climate controlled hanger, why get s prebuy and waste my money? Because the prebuy on a near new plane was in excess of $50,000 a tough pill to swallow without doing your due diligence. Trust me many people do not take care of their plane properly. The PPI was 3 pages, on a2016 plane. THE HECK WITH A PREBUY..

$50K in first year repairs, sounds about right from my reading here.  “ budget 10% of the purchase price for unexpected first year items”. Ouch!

[A64Pilot]

On 3/21/2023 at 10:27 PM, M20Doc said:

$50K in first year repairs, sounds about right from my reading here.  “ budget 10% of the purchase price for unexpected first year items”. Ouch!

People say the same thing about sailboats and it doesn’t make sense there either.

Using that formula, buy an old ramp tramp, because 10% of $10,000 is a lot less than 10% of $250,000.

Having said that if you can afford to spend %10 in the first year your more than likely going to be OK, where the guy who spent all their money on the purchase is likely to be in a bind.

If you have the capability and knowledge to do an assisted Annual, then I’d suggest that. A pre-buy has no legal definition, no min checklist that must be followed, an Annual does, admittedly some IA’s are more picky than others, but with an Annual your getting an IA and a legally required min inspection. A pre-buy can be anything.

[wombat]

FYI, I'm using Savvy to coordinate the prebuy for an East Coast (Maryland) Rocket.

I am also going out to see the plane in person and fly it. Hopefully with the seller, but if not, then with someone that has more recent mooney experience than me.

[Danb]

38 minutes ago, Evan said:

No prebuy should cost 50k. Sure, 50k of squawks found, but not for the inspection. 

Inspection $1750

[hubcap]

I don’t remember exactly what I paid for the pre-buy inspection when I purchased Myrtle but it was around $1,700 or so. There were 2 small squawks and when we did the first annual there were no surprises.

[Pinecone]

8 hours ago, wombat said:

FYI, I'm using Savvy to coordinate the prebuy for an East Coast (Maryland) Rocket.

I am also going out to see the plane in person and fly it. Hopefully with the seller, but if not, then with someone that has more recent mooney experience than me.

East Coast is easy, get the plane to KGAI and have Byron ( @jetdriven here in MS) do the pre-buy.

[ArtVandelay]

Question, is there a list of known good prebuy shops (preferably on the East Coast)? Has anyone used Savvy Aviation (Mike Busch)  prebuy‘s service?\
What in general do folks look for in a good prebuy? This is for either an E or a J.
 
 

Corrosion, requires removing inspection plates and some interior panels (below the windows).
Fill fuel tanks, check for leaks.
Borescope the cylinders.
Check gear/controls linkages.
Id guess about 8-12 hours of labor.

You don’t need PPI to check avionics, lights, general condition. Check databases are up to date. Ask to see the maintenance logs, engine monitor logs, check flightaware for recent flights.

Don’t bother with PPI till you’ve done your test ride, ask to see everything work; both radios, VOR, GPS, autopilot, etc. When straight and level, check ailerons and elevators positions.

[carusoam]

I love the PPI discussion….

1) There is no standard…

2) It depends on what you are buying….

3) It depends on your experience…

4) It depends on your risk tolerance….

5) They aren’t perfect… even when done at the worlds best MSC… (if this title actually existed) 

 

6) Ken makes this topic really easy.  Buy the most top notch machine available… less worry about the PPI detail….

7) PPIs are not perfect… and there is no guarantee that comes with them…

8) The smaller your flying budget is… the more important the PPI is…

9) Amount to spend… is based on the amount the plane price is…

• If it costs as much as a new car is one thing…
• If it costs as much as a new house is another…

10) a barely working instrument panel… isn’t worth very much…. A modern IFR panel with multiple color screens is definitely worth the extra testing costs… some panels are in the 50 to 100amu bracket… I would want to know the serial numbers are not on a stolen property list somewhere…. (Weird ways this happens)

11) My M20C… got a bare minimum PPI… the risk… a total loss is like financially losing a new car…. Sell what’s left…. She was known to be worn thin…

12) My M20R… got a maximum PPI… that ended with an annual… and transition training on the flight across the country home… every knob, and bulb tested… and oral report by DMax.  She was known to be like new…

13) a failed PPI is the best money ever spent… but it won’t feel that way…! 
My one failed PPI was great… retractable Cherokee, with a line of missing and loose rivets… that was visible to an experienced eye within a minute of the plane arriving… nobody wanted that plane, not even its owner…

14) Be there if you can… to know every panel has been opened to see what is behind each one…

15) take lots of pics because you intend to own her…. These pics will be very helpful later….

16) follow the guidance of somebody you know and trust… somebody with your level of financial risk tolerance….

17) Have a plan of what to do with each squawk before it starts… AW or non-AW… who pays, who fixes….

18) Its a lot of team work to come out successful…

19) Set an objective…. Come away with a new 2U Mooney, in AW condition, ready to fly home home, with TT, insurance, and finance, all set up….  Start getting ready for next year’s annual. 

20) Every screw, nut, bolt, and rivet counts…Most can be visually inspected within a couple of days… keep an eye out for any and all corrosion, scratches, bent or broken items…

 

Don’t forget to bring the registration papers with you…

By the time you have a PPI organized… everything starts moving in fast motion….

Stay ahead of the plane!

 

Go Dan… Show us that new Acclaim!!!      Spring Mooney Fly-In!

PP thoughts only, I have only bought or sold two planes… and a few industrial machines, facilities, and a handful of cars….

Best regards,

-a-

[chriscalandro]

If you want a warranty on your purchase, purchase an airplane with a factory warranty. 
 

If you think a seller is going to warranty a piece of machinery that’s likely been through many owners, and is 50 years old or more, I have some real bad news for you. 

[tgardnerh]

The next thing I do, and do extensively is a pre-buy on the seller. If I can trust the seller, I'm pretty much good to go.

I've seen your "prebuy the seller" approach referenced around here a few times--what are you looking for there? What is the human equivalent of looking for a corroded spar cap?


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[KLRDMD]

56 minutes ago, tgardnerh said:

I've seen your "prebuy the seller" approach referenced around here a few times--what are you looking for there? What is the human equivalent of looking for a corroded spar cap?

Conversations with the seller and if they are known on a forum, especially a type-specific forum, makes a huge difference. Many of my trades, I've traded for most of the airplanes I've owned, have been with known members of BeechTalk. Imagine buying an airplane from Anthony (or any of dozens of others here). I would simply write the check.

[Steve0715]

1 hour ago, KLRDMD said:

Conversations with the seller and if they are known on a forum, especially a type-specific forum, makes a huge difference. Many of my trades, I've traded for most of the airplanes I've owned, have been with known members of BeechTalk. Imagine buying an airplane from Anthony (or any of dozens of others here). I would simply write the check.

There were 2 that fit that category for me.  @bmcconnahaand James Frank.  I would have bought either is my medical was complete.  As far as a Prebuy, I’d invite a few MSers to come for a plane party.  Inspect for corrosion make sure everything worked.  I guess we’d need an A&P to keep us out of trouble.  Catering would be good money spent.

[Steve0715]

This would probably be a good template.  Found on Beech Talk.

bonanza-annual-inspection.pdf

[LANCECASPER]

On 3/26/2023 at 5:30 PM, tgardnerh said:

What is the human equivalent of looking for a corroded spar cap?

Colonoscopy

(However very difficult to get the Seller to submit.)

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, LANCECASPER said:

Colonoscopy

(However very difficult to get the Seller to submit.)

Damn right!  When I sell my plane there is NO WAY I'm getting a colonoscopy!