Phased In Upgrade of Avionics M20J

[Lax291]

Hey All,

First post here and looking for some guidance in what to upgrade in my new-to-me 1990 M20J. Budget is such that this will be a phased in approach with roughly $15K available for the first phase. 

I'm still a student pilot (plan to take my checkride in a month or two) so there are a lot of things I'd "like" to do but need your wisdom in which ones I should do to make the plane safer and be in a good spot for when I start my IFR right after my private certificate. 

About the current panel and what my thoughts are.  All the equipment is currently working (except JPI 700 EGT #3 probe is inop as well as the right fuel gauge).  

-GTN 650xi / Keep

-Nav-Comm KX165 / Upgrade to ?

-KMA24 Audio Panel / Upgrade to GMA 350C 

-JPI 700 / Upgrade to JPI 900 or GI 275 EIS and change out to digital senders

-Century 2000 AP / Upgrade to GFC 500 with pitch/roll/trim

-GTX 345R (but it's mounted on the panel for some reason...) / Keep

-DME & ADF / Should I keep these?

-Stormscope WX500 / Should I integrate into the 650xi?

- I eventually want to add 2 GI 275s for AI & HSI and to interface with GFC 500

 

I think those are the major items but if you see I missed anything let me know!  My initial thought was to do the engine monitor first and what's left over do the audio panel or something else.  I know the AP is going to be a big job, was just quoted ~ $26K for parts and labor. Appreciate any guidance in how I should go about upgrading wisely. 

 

Edited March 6, 2023 by Lax291

[RoundTwo]

The best way is to save up and go “big bang”. That’s the cheapest and easiest way to get an integrated panel. Otherwise, you’re just replacing like for like and not getting any benefit from truly integrated components. You’ll also spend a ton of extra money because all of the rework necessary at each iteration.

My advice would be to fix what’s broken, fly the snot out of it to figure out where your pain points are while you religiously put $100/hour into an avionics upgrade account at your bank. Ask questions and think everything through until you have enough saved to write a check for the work and not feel it at all.

[Jerry 5TJ]

Don’t forget about the down time — a major panel project often takes many months. If you do it in two or three stages the total down time may be over a year.  

[carusoam]

Phased upgrades are too expensive to work…

Good news… spend your first year flying and determine what you want…

fly, train, eat, sleep…. Prep for year two!

If your new2U plane becomes a forever-plane… go all in!

in year one…  figure out if you are a Big G fan…  or if you like avionics integration…

-a-

[Pinecone]

My 252 is similar avionics, but I have an  Aspen 1000 and G-5.

I agree with the others, if you do it piece by piece you will spend a LOT more money and more time.

As an interim, I swapped the JPI 700 for an 830 for better engine monitoring.

The other thing is, $15,000 is not going to do much.  Figure most avionics, these days, double the cost of the equipment for an installed price.  But if you do piece meal, it will be more, as they will have to pull the panel and interior, put it back, then next phase do that again.

[McMooney]

I decided to go with 2 G5's instead of the gi-275's,  they have a cleaner upgrade path to the gfc500 and g3x

also i could get them and have them installed immediately instead of waiting months.

most of your panel, well except for hte ADF i'd keep, dme isn't necc but if it works why bother removing it.

as for the kx165 a navcom is a navcom, what's the point of upgrading?  worry about it if/when it breaks.

 

also to save some money i'd think about sliding in a psengineering instead of the 350c,  my audio panel upgraade from a kma20 to a pma8000g was EXPENSIVE.  don't think i'd do it again.  really like the new audio panel but after owning it, i think i could've spent money other places first.

Edited March 4, 2023 by McMooney

[McMooney]

20 minutes ago, McMooney said:

I decided to go with 2 G5's instead of the gi-275's,  they have a cleaner upgrade path to the gfc500 and g3x

also i could get them and have them installed immediately instead of waiting months.

most of your panel, well except for hte ADF i'd keep, dme isn't necc but if it works why bother removing it.

as for the kx165 a navcom is a navcom, what's the point of upgrading?  worry about it if/when it breaks.

 

also to save some money i'd think about sliding in a psengineering instead of the 350c,  my audio panel upgraade from a kma20 to a pma8000g was EXPENSIVE.  don't think i'd do it again.  really like the new audio panel but after owning it, i think i could've spent money other places first.

To be clear, the pma8000g is an AMAZING audio panel, i'm just saying as a hobbyist, i don't get enough use out of it

[Bryan G]

Definitely recommend the dual Gi-275s

- 40 hours install, ~$10k parts (dual battery, magnetometer, OAT, etc)

CGR-30P/C combo

-28 hours install, ~$5.6k parts before the awesome Oshkosh rebates

Downtime…December 28th through February 16th. Not for parts…just random sick days and unknown shop delays.

I love the setup, but depending on what your future goal is (and $$)…maybe a single G5 attitude, keep the current AI as a standby, upgrade the monitor to a primary (CGR/JPI/GI), and one day go G3X keeping the G5 for standby/GFC500 autopilot interface.

[Pinecone]

Doing dual G5s means if you decide on a G3X later, you can sell one G5, and the remaining one works better with the G3X Touch.

[LANCECASPER]

On 3/4/2023 at 6:56 AM, Lax291 said:

Hey All,

Fist post here and looking for some guidance in what to upgrade in my new-to-me 1990 M20J. Budget is such that this will be a phased in approach with roughly $15K available for the first phase. 

I'm still a student pilot (plan to take my checkride in a month or two) so there are a lot of things I'd "like" to do but need your wisdom in which ones I should do to make the plane safer and be in a good spot for when I start my IFR right after my private certificate. 

About the current panel and what my thoughts are.  All the equipment is currently working (except JPI 700 EGT #3 probe is inop as well as the right fuel gauge).  

-GTN 650xi / Keep

-Nav-Comm KX165 / Upgrade to ?

-KMA24 Audio Panel / Upgrade to GMA 350C 

-JPI 700 / Upgrade to JPI 900 or GI 275 EIS and change out to digital senders

-Century 2000 AP / Upgrade to GFC 500 with pitch/roll/trim

-GTX 345R (but it's mounted on the panel for some reason...) / Keep

-DME & ADF / Should I keep these?

-Stormscope WX500 / Should I integrate into the 650xi?

- I eventually want to add 2 GI 275s for AI & HSI and to interface with GFC 500

 

I think those are the major items but if you see I missed anything let me know!  My initial thought was to do the engine monitor first and what's left over do the audio panel or something else.  I know the AP is going to be a big job, was just quoted ~ $26K for parts and labor. Appreciate any guidance in how I should go about upgrading wisely. 

 

I would start a reserve/upgrade account with the $15,000 and keep it separate from anything else. Since the J is "new to you" the first annual is usually an expensive one, catching up on things that have been deferred. It's not completely out of the question for a first annual to be $7,500-$10,000. Even if it's not, airplane expenses come in multiples of $1,000's, so having $15,000 - $25,000 set aside means that you aren't caught off-guard when, not if, it happens.

Regarding upgrades there are huge advantages to delaying gratification and saving up and doing it all at once. The same tech working on it from start to finish is a huge plus. Think of it as surgery. If one person can go in and and do what they need to do once, you're done and you move on. Multiple people opening it up over and over again induces maintenance-related gremlins. Another huge advantage is that when you have the money saved you do it with the latest and greatest at that time. If you do it piece-meal you may start down one path and then part way through that journey,  other newer, better things come out. I've seen people waste a lot of money over the years doing it like that. 

Regarding your avionics: 

-GTN 650xi / Keep     For sure - this makes the foundation for WAAS Approaches, SmartGlide, etc

-Nav-Comm KX165 / Upgrade to ?      Until you have the end goal in mind, keep it. These were some of the best nav/coms ever built - people still work on them. Down the road when you do a complete upgrade you might want to do a new Garmin Nav/Com. 

-KMA24 Audio Panel / Upgrade to GMA 350C  The audio panel touches everything else in the panel. Again, wait til you decide what everything else is going to be and then do it once, do it right. Not cut and spliced as you change your mind over multiple upgrades.

-JPI 700 / Upgrade to JPI 900 or GI 275 EIS and change out to digital senders If your primary gauges are working and your JPI700 is working, leave it alone until you decide what the end goal is. I did CIES on a JPI930 upgrade on a Bravo a few years ago - one piece of advice: use someone who has had a lot of experience and success on CIES senders on a Mooney. Mine weren't calibrated correctly and I paid by the hour  to educate them on how to do these. Using someone who may be expensive but is very experienced at these will be much less money than paying a novice's tuition.

-Century 2000 AP / Upgrade to GFC 500 with pitch/roll/trim  Good choice - but do it with all of what you want at the same time

-GTX 345R (but it's mounted on the panel for some reason...) / Keep  My favorite choice for a transponder and I think the reasons they put it up front is that (1) you had the room and (2) that the bluetooth signal doesn't do well on a Mooney when it is in the back without some modification. I took out the aluminum oxygen bottle door on the rear of the baggage compartment behind the carpet and replaced it with ABS which helped the signal and I put in a signal repeater next to the GTX345R which also helped.

-DME & ADF / Should I keep these? I wouldn't go out of my way to get rid of them until you do the complete upgrade. They aren't hurting anything and do provide some situational awareness and an AM radio . (If I was taking an IFR checkride I probably would pull the ADF  ) People get bent out of shape trying to pull functioning items for a handful of pounds of useful load. Cut a few carbs out of the diet and you gain some other benefits as well. Would I try to find room for the ADF and DME when you do a complete panel? No, but use them in the meantime

-Stormscope WX500 / Should I integrate into the 650xi?  You don't have a WX-500, you have a WX-900 in your panel. That won't integrate to another display. A WX-500 would though. I definitely wouldn't remove it if it's working. In fact if it wasn't, I would look for another one that's working to plug in since it's real time information and one more tool in the tool bag when it comes to weather avoidance. On a complete upgrade I wouldn't cut a hole in a new panel for a WX-900 though, I would find a good WX-500 to display on whatever you choose.

- I eventually want to add 2 GI 275s for AI & HSI and to interface with GFC 500 Again, do this all at once. You will have to have the GI275s or G5s or G3X or 500TXi to use a GFC500 anyway. A GFC500 without these is a paperweight, completely useless.

To get some more situational awareness I would look for a used Garmin Aera 760 (+/-$1200) and mount it to the yoke. This will bluetooth with your GTX345R and give you amazing capability until you do a complete panel. And even once you do the panel, you'll still find it useful.

Another great reason to wait is that "what goes up must come down". The price increases of avionics installations have been at all-time highs. As things slow down and hopefully come back closer to reality the equipment will be more readily available and shops may be a little more competitive,

[PT20J]

I agree with everything @LANCECASPER said. You have a perfectly serviceable panel now (assuming everything is working) and I would fly the airplane for a year and find out how many maintenance surprises there are before spending money on the panel.

By far, the most bang for the buck will be a GFC 500. But it is not a stand alone autopilot like the Century. It's best to think of it as an add-on option of a G3X, G5 or GI 275 since most of the autopilot software is in those units. So, that means that you also have to decide on which PFD you want.

If you really need to do this in increments, I would partner with a good avionics shop and decide on the end result and then work backwards to break it into affordable increments. The shop should be able to help you come up with a plan that minimizes additional installation costs from doing it piecemeal. Keep in mind that avionics installation costs are generally 25% to 50% the cost of the hardware depending on the complexity of the installation. There are a lot of little things that are surprises if you don't know about them, like do you want old wiring removed or left unused in place? And, do you want unused antennas removed and the holes patched and painted? (A King ADF antenna leaves about a 3-1/2" dia. hole in the fuselage).

Skip

[Lax291]

Thank you all who have provided their recommendations and experience with their own upgrades.  I can see how delaying the glass gratification will save my wallet in the long-run and right now there is no need to upgrade most of what's in there.  

The one thing that's still standing out to upgrade is the engine monitor, and mostly because I am pretty sure 1 cylinder is going to have to be replaced during its annual (waiting at the shop to start it).  While the EDM 700 is working (just needs a probe replaced) I am still thinking about upgrading that to either the EDM 830 and then I think if I'm going to go with the 830 why not look at something that can be my primary like the GI 275 or EDM 900?

 

Chad

[JayMatt]

On 3/4/2023 at 6:56 AM, Lax291 said:

Hey All,

First post here and looking for some guidance in what to upgrade in my new-to-me 1990 M20J. Budget is such that this will be a phased in approach with roughly $15K available for the first phase. 

I'm still a student pilot (plan to take my checkride in a month or two) so there are a lot of things I'd "like" to do but need your wisdom in which ones I should do to make the plane safer and be in a good spot for when I start my IFR right after my private certificate. 

About the current panel and what my thoughts are.  All the equipment is currently working (except JPI 700 EGT #3 probe is inop as well as the right fuel gauge).  

-GTN 650xi / Keep

-Nav-Comm KX165 / Upgrade to ?

-KMA24 Audio Panel / Upgrade to GMA 350C 

-JPI 700 / Upgrade to JPI 900 or GI 275 EIS and change out to digital senders

-Century 2000 AP / Upgrade to GFC 500 with pitch/roll/trim

-GTX 345R (but it's mounted on the panel for some reason...) / Keep

-DME & ADF / Should I keep these?

-Stormscope WX500 / Should I integrate into the 650xi?

- I eventually want to add 2 GI 275s for AI & HSI and to interface with GFC 500

 

I think those are the major items but if you see I missed anything let me know!  My initial thought was to do the engine monitor first and what's left over do the audio panel or something else.  I know the AP is going to be a big job, was just quoted ~ $26K for parts and labor. Appreciate any guidance in how I should go about upgrading wisely. 

I started out the same way with mine. After over a year of flying there really isn't any upgrades I feel like I need. Maybe a nice auto pilot but I don't think there is any advantage to bigger screens, I find all the screen to be a distraction from just flying. Plenty of pilots flew just fine on way less than I have, so I'm focused on paint and interior comfort upgrades. 

[PT20J]

The GTX 345 has Bluetooth connectivity to an iPad to provide ADS-B In weather and traffic, GPS position from the GTN, and AHRS. So, if you yoke mount an iPad running ForeFlight or Garmin Pilot you get a lot of the value of glass with what you already have. The GTX AHRS didn’t use to be very good, but Garmin has supposedly made improvements, so you might also have a backup for the AI.

I would decide if you are ever going to install a G3X before replacing the EDM 700 because the Garmin EIS option on the G3X is a really nice, well-integrated design. If you replace the EDM 700 now, you will have a nicer display and user interface, but really no increased utility. And, there is no such thing as digital senders; all the engine monitors use the same probes and transducers.

The driving force for an upgrade is usually when the autopilot becomes unreliable and unrepairable. Then, you have to get a GFC 500 and that limits the PFD choice. Aspen used to be a really good option before the GFC. 

Skip

[PeteMc]

On 3/4/2023 at 7:56 AM, Lax291 said:

-GTX 345R (but it's mounted on the panel for some reason...) / Keep

Are there any knobs, buttons or a display on your GTX345?  If so, it is not 345R, it's a regular 345, but you can control most of the basic functions remotely from the GTN.

The 345R is just a silver box with no controls.  I suppose they could have mounted it in the panel due to space, but I think they usually mount it up underneath out of sight.

 

 

[joepilotmooney]

4 hours ago, JayMatt said:

I started out the same way with mine. After over a year of flying there really isn't any upgrades I feel like I need. Maybe a nice auto pilot but I don't think there is any advantage to bigger screens, I find all the screen to be a distraction from just flying. Plenty of pilots flew just fine on way less than I have, so I'm focused on paint and interior comfort upgrades. 

For sure lose the DME and ADF (unless flying outside the Us or in AK maybe), I have a DME but everything I do is with a G430. So the DME is useless to me. In 17 years I've never even used the #2 VOR receiver. In fact it's been removed since it was inop.

 

Good luck!

Joe

[RoundTwo]

1 hour ago, PeteMc said:

Are there any knobs, buttons or a display on your GTX345?  If so, it is not 345R, it's a regular 345, but you can control most of the basic functions remotely from the GTN.

The 345R is just a silver box with no controls.  I suppose they could have mounted it in the panel due to space, but I think they usually mount it up underneath out of sight.

 

 

He posted a picture up front and no XPNDR on the panel, so it’s in the back.

[PeteMc]

1 hour ago, RoundTwo said:

He posted a picture up front and no XPNDR on the panel, so it’s in the back.

Naw, looking at the picture would have been too simple!   But now that I went back and scrolled down to actually see the pic, I do understand his comment "...but it's mounted on the panel for some reason..." when he was talking about the 345R.  It does appear to be at the bottom on the right.  Looks like they cut a hole in the black panel plate for the access port. 

[cwaters]

10 hours ago, Lax291 said:

Thank you all who have provided their recommendations and experience with their own upgrades.  I can see how delaying the glass gratification will save my wallet in the long-run and right now there is no need to upgrade most of what's in there.  

The one thing that's still standing out to upgrade is the engine monitor, and mostly because I am pretty sure 1 cylinder is going to have to be replaced during its annual (waiting at the shop to start it).  While the EDM 700 is working (just needs a probe replaced) I am still thinking about upgrading that to either the EDM 830 and then I think if I'm going to go with the 830 why not look at something that can be my primary like the GI 275 or EDM 900?

 

Chad

I have the 900 and love it, its a primary so the old gauges go, its large enough for the 6cyl guys to have enough room on the display so us 4 cyl guys don't have everything squished together and the operation is really intuitive 

 

I have a standard 6 pack and a non-waas 430, when i got the plane i had high hopes of going all glass but after flying for now 2 years I don't think this plane will go all glass. If anything ill upgrade the 430 so i can have waas but my IFR flying does not have me shooting to LPV min anyway and the LNAV min are typically 500ft 

there are a few other nice to haves that i would aim for in my next plane but i don't find them enough of an annoyance for this one to pay the $$ to add them. I'd like to have an AP (I just have the wing leveler), WAAS, Built in ADSB-in, and synthetic vision would be nice but all are byond what i want to put into this plane given avionics resale pricing don't age well. The AP is the only one ive seriously considered and come very close to pulling the trigger on as my average trip changed from 500nm to 1000nm in the last yr but even then the plane is super stable and once itgets trimmed out in cruise im rarely making any inputs to the controls. I've found that (in smooth air) i can trim to the point that if im getting low i can lean back in my seat and climb and if high lean forward. 

 

All this to say fly your plane for a while and try to take some long trips where you spend a few hours in cruise to really highlight what you don't like about your current set up and then rank those grievances 

Edited March 6, 2023 by cwaters

[LANCECASPER]

7 hours ago, PeteMc said:

The 345R is just a silver box with no controls.  I suppose they could have mounted it in the panel due to space, but I think they usually mount it up underneath out of sight.

That's exactly what he has right above the right yoke.

[LANCECASPER]

9 hours ago, PT20J said:

I would decide if you are ever going to install a G3X before replacing the EDM 700 because the Garmin EIS option on the G3X is a really nice, well-integrated design. If you replace the EDM 700 now, you will have a nicer display and user interface, but really no increased utility. And, there is no such thing as digital senders; all the engine monitors use the same probes and transducers.

Exactly!

The only time I could ever see a reason to do the certified engine monitor before the complete panel upgrade is if the airplane's certified gauges are inop and can't be repaired. And then if it's a stand-alone (JPI or EI) I would put it on the right panel so I'm paying less labor until I do the complete panel upgrade, and I'd make sure that they make the harness long enough in case you want it on the left side when you do the panel upgrade.

[Pinecone]

On 3/5/2023 at 4:00 PM, PT20J said:

Keep in mind that avionics installation costs are generally 25% to 50% the cost of the hardware depending on the complexity of the installation.

Quotes I have gotten in the last 6 months, install prices are pushing 100% of the equipment costs.

[Utah20Gflyer]

I believe you can do a slide in replacement of the KMA 24 audio panel with a PS Engineering audio panel.  That’s an extremely cheap upgrade.  
 

as for the rest of the 15k I’d do two GI 275s.  FYI the king radio should be compatible with the HSI, so you could probably get rid of a CDI also your vacuum system if you wanted to.

[donkaye]

This may seem like heresy, but I think you should borrow the money and do your complete panel upgrade now.  Reason?  I think at least for the next two years, and maybe even longer, we are going to have inflation hitting us in the face.  Once people start accepting the massive price increases, as it seems they have, it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy.  I think the cost of borrowed money in the long run would be less than the increased cost of the equipment 4-5 years from now.

I think my panel upgrade in today's prices would at least 50% more than it cost me when I did the upgrade years ago.

[ArtVandelay]

Your quote of $26k for just the GFC500 is way too expensive.