Leadville early October >>

[Teddsgotwings]

Hello,

Planning an intercontinental flight from Los Angeles to Boston. Would like to hit Leadville on the way. Flying a 1978 m20j. Id be getting to leadville Oct 5th in the late morning early afternoon. Just wondering if anyone has any tips/recs for getting in and (more importantly) out of there. Speeds to look for by midfield? Things like that. I’ve checked the performance charts and all seems feasible as long as weather is good. On that note the temps look to be in the mid 50’s low 60’s around this time of year there. Winds in the AM are seeming quite manageable. Overall it seems like a feasible stop but I’d like to hear what experiences other Mooney owners have had out that way.

 

 

Edited September 24, 2022 by Teddsgotwings

[PeteMc]

I think you're absolutely correct with the advantage of cooler Oct temps.  And Oct can be a great month to fly in on the days that do have lighter winds. 

I'm actually going from NYC to SEA area sometime in Oct and was thinking about a stop there too.  Already planning to stop to see family in Denver, so it's an easy hop to KLXV for a stop.  Need to figure out how loaded we're going to be, but being in a 231 helps with the altitude.

 

 

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, Teddsgotwings said:

Hello,

Planning an intercontinental flight from Los Angeles to Boston. Would like to hit Leadville on the way. Flying a 1978 m20j. Id be getting to leadville Oct 5th in the late morning early afternoon. Just wondering if anyone has any tips/recs for getting in and (more importantly) out of there. Speeds to look for by midfield? Things like that. I’ve checked the performance charts and all seems feasible as long as weather is good. On that note the temps look to be in the mid 50’s low 60’s around this time of year there. Winds in the AM are seeming quite manageable. Overall it seems like a feasible stop but I’d like to hear what experiences other Mooney owners have had out that way.

 

 

I don’t have specific experience with Leadville, but I also think it would be fine.  I’d make sure it was cool and winds were manageable, but I’d also plan my stop with ~30 gallons or less fuel and light-ish load.  Lighter weight really helps the takeoff distance and climb.

 

[4cornerflyer]

Leadville shouldn't be a problem for you in the morning that time of year. Their fuel price is generally pretty good. I hate to make extra stops on such a long flight, so hope you aren't too heavily loaded to take on a decent amount of fuel. You can borrow the car to grab a good breakfast in town. 

There really aren't obstacles close to the airport, so all you need to do is to get airborne by end end of the runway. Yes, there are big mountains all around, but you have plenty of time to climb.

Jon

Edited September 24, 2022 by 4cornerflyer

[PeteMc]

One other note on the XC....  Toss your Tie-Down straps/ropes in the back of the plane.  It has only happened a few times over the years, but I have rolled up on a ramp that had plenty of spots for overnight stay, but no tie-downs to be seen. 

I prefer not to put the brakes on just in case something happens and someone needs to shove my plane out of the way.  So my nose wheel chock and straps are the preferred method.

 

[N201MKTurbo]

Don’t worry about the winds at the runway as much as the winds across the ridges getting in and out of the valley.

[Skates97]

I like this guy's videos, less trying to grab attention and more just offering information. He has a M20C that he flies all around CO. Here is his video of Leadville.

 

[GeeBee]

4 hours ago, Teddsgotwings said:

Speeds to look for by midfield?

You need 70% of your flyaway speed at 50% of the runway. True for all altitudes.

[Boilermonkey]

Just make sure you have enough altitude and climb rate to make it over the mountains.  If not, circle over the airport until you do.

[Shadrach]

3 hours ago, GeeBee said:

You need 70% of your flyaway speed at 50% of the runway. True for all altitudes.

I’ve not never landed at field above about 4K but with 6400’ available and morning temps already in the 30-40° range, I would be concerned if not airborne by midfield.

[Ragsf15e]

3 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I’ve not never landed at field above about 4K but with 6400’ available and morning temps already in the 30-40° range, I would be concerned if not airborne by midfield.

I agree with you, but keep in mind the standard temp at 10k is 23f, so “cool” temp might still increase your density altitude.  If you’re  light, you’re probably right about being airborne before halfway, but acceleration is going to be real slow and it will require accelerating to a much higher “ground speed” to get normal takeoff IAS.  I guess I’m saying, i agree with you, but anyone flying an NA out of there should be real careful, especially their first couple times.  It’s hard to anticipate the effects of that kind of DA.  The charts tell you something, but when you actually feel it, that’s a whole different level.

Once airborne, climb will be pretty slow which is when those winds rolling off the ridges come into play as @N201MKTurbo suggested.  You don’t have excess power or altitude to out climb a downdraft.

[Shadrach]

37 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

I agree with you, but keep in mind the standard temp at 10k is 23f, so “cool” temp might still increase your density altitude.  If you’re  light, you’re probably right about being airborne before halfway, but acceleration is going to be real slow and it will require accelerating to a much higher “ground speed” to get normal takeoff IAS.  I guess I’m saying, i agree with you, but anyone flying an NA out of there should be real careful, especially their first couple times.  It’s hard to anticipate the effects of that kind of DA.  The charts tell you something, but when you actually feel it, that’s a whole different level.

Once airborne, climb will be pretty slow which is when those winds rolling off the ridges come into play as @N201MKTurbo suggested.  You don’t have excess power or altitude to out climb a downdraft.

My point was if not airborne by 3000’ maybe reconsider the departure.

I was interpolating from the book numbers for the F which only go to 7500’. Looking at the difference in book ground roll numbers between the F and J does not make sense to me. The ground roll for the F does not seem nearly conservative enough.

M20F

M20J

[Shadrach]

Also, consider leaning for take off. 

[Ragsf15e]

1 minute ago, Shadrach said:

Also, consider leaning for take off. 

Oh yeah that’s definitely gonna be required.  Typically out west you lean whenever DA is above ~5k.  I usually set my target egt early in the roll but doing it prior is good too.

I actually think your F chart would indicate taking off right about 3k.  I’m usually conservative on the charts, so looking at the high temps for 5000 and 7500’, and using total distance and average of the two weights I get about 2000’ at 5k/80deg, 2500’ at 7400’/70 deg.  I’m guessing your 3k guess is pretty close at 10k, 50 degrees.

[N201MKTurbo]

We all know our planes fly just fine at 10000 feet. The runway at Leadville is real long! 
 

You need to climb to about 12000 feet to get out of there. And we all know our planes will climb to 12000. The park (Colorado speak for high mountain valley) is big enough to circle and climb high enough to cross the ridges. So doable for any Mooney. 
 

You don’t need to be airborne by midfield. You have to be airborne before you don’t have enough runway to stop. That is about 3/4 down the runway.

I have landed at Leadville 3 times. All in my NA M20F. Not that hard.

[Ragsf15e]

9 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

We all know our planes fly just fine at 10000 feet. The runway at Leadville is real long! 
 

You need to climb to about 12000 feet to get out of there. And we all know our planes will climb to 12000. The park (Colorado speak for high mountain valley) is big enough to circle and climb high enough to cross the ridges. So doable for any Mooney. 
 

You don’t need to be airborne by midfield. You have to be airborne before you don’t have enough runway to stop. That is about 3/4 down the runway.

I have landed at Leadville 3 times. All in my NA M20F. Not that hard.

Ha!  Yeah that’s the easy part!

“I have landed at Leadville 3 times. All in my NA M20F. Not that hard.”

I believe you though, I just think it’s good to be prepared to feel very sluggish acceleration and see 200-400fpm climb depending on conditions.  

[N201MKTurbo]

2 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Ha!  Yeah that’s the easy part!

“I have landed at Leadville 3 times. All in my NA M20F. Not that hard.”

I believe you though, I just think it’s good to be prepared to feel very sluggish acceleration and see 200-400fpm climb depending on conditions.  

True enough, but you can do it.

If the winds are howling, you can still do it, is the juice worth the squeeze? 

[Coach43]

Colorado native here.  I LOVE Leadville in October.  The Aspen trees will be changing colors -- beautiful!

Landing will be easy, IAS will be normal, but will look fast out the window (density altitude review goes here).

Focus on the take-off.  Best in the morning.  Best light and lean.

Be VERY patient, everything will happen slowly...

The mountains on both sides are over 14,000 ft.  Come into the valley from the south and leave to the south.

Any ridge top winds over 20kts are a red flag for downdrafts around here.  Ugly to be in a 400 ft/min downdraft at 10,000'.

[ottorecker]

As previously stated, operating in and out of mountain airports is not as much about landing as it is about taking off (and go-arounds).  Leadville is a wonderful airport and IMO with normal planning a straightforward mission in any Mooney.  BUT...if it is windy aloft and perhaps at the surface caution is advised taking off on runway 16 which is into lowering terrain and generally preferred.  There is a drop-off at the end of the runway with large transmission lines that will get your attention if you encounter a downdraft.  October in the Rockies can be windy.  I won't discourage you from a great adventure but definitely check the wx/winds for your arrival/departure time.  And if you plan to fly in the mountains more often take a good mountain flying course.

[PT20J]

Does the FBO still have the “Highest Airport… “ T-Shirts? 

[N201MKTurbo]

31 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Does the FBO still have the “Highest Airport… “ T-Shirts? 

And is the crew car still full of dog hair?

[N201MKTurbo]

When I lived in Denver, my neighbors across the street told me her father used to own an M20E Mooney that he loved. He lost his medical and sold the plane a few years before. One day they said he was coming to visit and asked if I would take him flying. Of course I said yes. He was a cranky old doctor. When we got to the airport I told him to get in the left seat. He looked at me kind of funny, got a big grin on his face and jumped right in. I handed him a sectional and told him to fly us to Leadville. His flying was perfect! His radio work getting us around the Class B (TCA) was perfect! His landing was smooth as silk!

His daughter said that they couldn't pry the grin off his face for the rest of his visit. He died one month later. I'm glad I could do that for him.

[Teddsgotwings]

Thank you all for the insight here. I love this community. 

 

First and foremost, weather will certainly be the determining factor. I do have a few days of buffer built into my trip as well as a place to stay should the winds not allow for a safe departure from Leadville. It will just be myself and one passenger/copilot so we will be flying pretty light. All in all it looks like this is seemingly very feasible. I'm looking forward to it. 

 

Thanks again for all of the feedback. 

-TR N201XQ

[carusoam]

Post lots o pics… along the way…

Best regards,

-a-