hangar rash - flap dammage

[rwabdu]

Wanted to see if anyone on here could give me some advice on some damage that happened to my flap tonight. Mooney m20c. I have a mechanic coming to look at it when he has time, not sure how long it will take. Cheaply repairable or will I need a new flap? Really sucks. Thank you

[carusoam]

Bummer…

But….

We have options…

1) Used flap from another near identical plane…  ask @Alan Fox and others….

2) New skins from the factory for a perfect repair…

3) Got insurance for that?

4) Got a mechanic familiar with this level of sheet metal repair?

5) There are a few examples of how people have done these repairs in the past… you are not alone.

 

If your lucky… somebody with insurance did this to your plane…

If unlucky… you did this yourself….  

It can be tough being human.

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic…

Best regards,

-a-

[rwabdu]

Ugh, sucks. It was a mistake someone moving my plane while I was there, no one to blame. 

At least there is a flap for sale... https://www.ebay.com/itm/353320237058 will have to see what the mechanic thinks, but seems like it's going to be a few AMUs then.

Thanks for the info

[carusoam]

Check part numbers closely…

There may have been some changes along the way…over the years…

Ailerons probably changed more than flaps did…

Best regards,

-a-

[N201MKTurbo]

Back in 86 I whacked my flap. I got a new one from Mooney for $600. Ah, the good old days….

[ArtVandelay]

Probably can straighten it out to allow flying it, but looks like it is creased so won’t be perfect repair. Salvage part probably best option.

[Guest]

Knowing the serial number of your plane will allow us to find you the correct part number so you can begin your search.

[rwabdu]

3 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Knowing the serial number of your plane will allow us to find you the correct part number so you can begin your search.

Thank you, serial number on my aircraft is 680093

[Guest]

From the IPC your serial number appears to fall under code I

[N201MKTurbo]

Remember that you can repair the flap cheaper than buying a new one. You can just replace the skins. If you can get them from Mooney.

[Shadrach]

On 8/18/2022 at 11:37 PM, N201MKTurbo said:

Back in 86 I whacked my flap. I got a new one from Mooney for $600. Ah, the good old days….

Wow that would still be <$2000 in todays money. I’m betting a flap from the factory today is 5k or more.

I wanted to have an aileron reskinned about 10 years ago for similar reasons and was quoted $3600. I decided to live with the small section of rash on the trailing edge until I could find a suitable donor.

[Yetti]

If you could find a decent A&P.   Drill the rivets and few hours with hammer and dolly.   A little paintless dent repair.   Check all the control rods for bending.  Check flaps for symmetry.   Rivet it back together.   Paint to match.

[MikeOH]

16 hours ago, Yetti said:

If you could find a decent A&P.   Drill the rivets and few hours with hammer and dolly.   A little paintless dent repair.   Check all the control rods for bending.  Check flaps for symmetry.   Rivet it back together.   Paint to match.

WARNING: Thread drift...

Not an A&P, never drilled a rivet in my life.  So, how do you drill exactly in the center of the rivet head?  Seems the drill would skip or get off-center more times than not.  Is there some special tool??

[75_M20F]

7 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

WARNING: Thread drift...

Not an A&P, never drilled a rivet in my life.  So, how do you drill exactly in the center of the rivet head?  Seems the drill would skip or get off-center more times than not.  Is there some special tool??

Watch the Kitplanes Magazine Channel on Youtube "Metal Magic" Some good starter tips from an expert. There is a whole series in there, don't just stop at this linked one.

 

Order this for practice: https://store.vansaircraft.com/rv-control-surface-training-project-rv-training-project-1.html

Build it and then disasmble it by removing the rivets, and build it agian. You are doing good when you can remove a rivet and NOT enlarge the hole while doing so.

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, MikeOH said:

WARNING: Thread drift...

Not an A&P, never drilled a rivet in my life.  So, how do you drill exactly in the center of the rivet head?  Seems the drill would skip or get off-center more times than not.  Is there some special tool??

It should be punched with a center punch prior to drilling so that the drill bit starts in the center punch divot.   This works really well to keep the bit from wandering, and using a properly sized bit can help to keep from enlarging the hole.

Some common rivets already have a divot (dimple) in the center (AD rivets) and those help to center the bit as well.

 

[A64Pilot]

Not too many years ago I damaged an aileron on my Maule, was going to reskin it but was advised to check the price first.

Maule wanted $600, so I just bought a new one. 

Full disclosure I oversaw an aircraft manufacturer’s parts sales for a number of years. Of course their prices were sky high just like everyone else’s. I never get did the owner to understand that we didn’t sell many parts because they were overpriced, they saw them as a source of income of course, so they kept increasing the prices and sales diminished, so of course they increased the prices even higher in the attempt to recover income.

However we got many, many requests for parts quotes, just very few sales, the quotes were of course used for insurence.

If priced high enough people can get very creative in the search for parts, often spending a lot of hours manufacturing something that they would have bought if the price was reasonable.

[MikeOH]

26 minutes ago, EricJ said:

It should be punched with a center punch prior to drilling so that the drill bit starts in the center punch divot. 

 

That sounds good but I’d think a hand center punch would still be subject to enough placement inaccuracy to be less than ideal. 
I guess I should just watch the video!

[carusoam]

Fortunately,  if you are drilling close to the center… the rivet head probably breaks off before the drill bit gets too close to drilling the sheet metal…

Same experience for drilling out screws….  Yay! Actual experience… 

Best regards,

-a-

[EricJ]

48 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

That sounds good but I’d think a hand center punch would still be subject to enough placement inaccuracy to be less than ideal. 
I guess I should just watch the video!

As mentioned, it doesn't need to be super accurate to just drill the head off.   If it goes well the bit doesn't really go in the hole very much, it just pops the head off.   With most center punches it's not too hard to place it accurately enough and then dimple the head to drill the head off.   Then you can knock the remaining part of the rivet out with a pin punch or something similar.

[Guest]

No centre punching required to drill out MS20470AD rivets or MS20426 rivet used in most GA airframes.  They come with a handy dimple in the centre of the rivet.  Starting with a sharp #40 split point drill bit is good practice before moving up to the final drill size appropriate to the rivet size.

 

[Alan Fox]

I probably have 3 of them , good shape , How about 700 dollars ??

[PT20J]

One thing about Mooney flaps is that there is very little clearance between the flap and the top wing skin when retracted, and if the flap is "tweaked" at all, the rivet heads on the leading edge will rub on the wing skin. I've seen some where the rivet heads are nearly worn through.

[cliffy]

If you get a used flap make sure you get the donor aircraft info yr, model, N number for your log book sign off. 

This keeps the air worthiness continuity chain complete.

[carusoam]

@rwabdu see note from Alan above….

-a-

[Yetti]

On 8/21/2022 at 4:01 PM, MikeOH said:

That sounds good but I’d think a hand center punch would still be subject to enough placement inaccuracy to be less than ideal. 
I guess I should just watch the video!

Did not watch the video.  Not an expert, but the way I do it from drilling out rivets on sailboats and stuff.     Use the spring loaded punch.   fantastic device.  Also carry one on the fire fighter belt for taking out car side windows.   Hint use it in a corner.  The $3.00 ones from Harbor Freight work dandy.    I go under size the rivet so if it is not centerpunch accurate. you don't wallow out the hole.   Sometimes you can stop before you go into the hole and then just pop the head or tail off.  variable speed drills are fantastic and for accuracy use the slower gear setting. The other thing you can do is go way oversize after starting a hole with a small bit.   Then just stop before you get to the material.   It's all about the angle on bit and having a sharp bit.    I have found the Drill Doctor will help get a sharp bit.    https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200320239_200320239?cm_mmc=Google-pla&utm_source=Google_PLA&utm_medium=Power Tools > Sharpeners %2B Accessories > Drill Bit Sharpeners&utm_campaign=Drill Doctor&utm_content=1560960&gclid=Cj0KCQjw9ZGYBhCEARIsAEUXITX1E8m8UPVgYBLcM9zHs2IjY8vP-Mz0tXUWh2GG_6ieTizGRaBygg4aAt4TEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

Edited August 23, 2022 by Yetti