changing oil from phillips to shell

[Mooneyjet]

Hello folks i purchase a mooney and the previous owner has been using phillips and changing the oil regularly every 25 hours no filter, the engine that i got is a n/a 0 360, the engine is running great however getting close to tbo, would changing back to shell oil be wise. thank you

[rbridges]

I don't have a ton of experience maintaing a plane, but many people at our local airport use Shell since that it what's readily available.

[Jeff_S]

I assume you mean the Phillips XC 20/50, right? That's is a great oil, and if it's what the engine is used to then there's no reason to change it back.  It is the recommended multi-grade oil by Mike Busch, if you subscribe to what he says, because it is an all natural oil (no synthetic as the Shell has) so it provides great protection without the added cost of the synthetic.

Have you seen any oil sample analyses of the engine? I assume if the prior owner has been changing oil every 25 hours, he's also diligent enough to take samples. That will help you determine the condition of the engine and the impact of how close it is to TBO.

[1964-M20E]

I’ve had my Mooney for almost two years now and I have used both Phillips and Shell.  The original owner used the 20W50 I use the straight weight 50.  I’ll inspect the filter but do not do any oil analysis.  As long as you stay on top of the oil changes I do not think it really matters.

Multi weight vs. straight weight depends mainly on where you live and fly.  I fly down here in the south and the straight weight is no problem for me.  I’d use the multi weight if I often found myself flying in near freezing or sub freezing conditions and this is for starting operations while cruising it does not matter.

I’d love to have the means to test a number of aircraft engines on the cheapest recycled automotive oil there is just to see what would happen but that is another topic all together.

[jetdriven]

Our engine's previous owners used Aeroshell 15W50.  According to Ed Kollin (camguard inventor) and Mike Busch, its about the worst oil you use in a Lycoming, its 50% synthetic.  it runs off the cam after shutdown.  Also the most expensive.    FWIW Busch runs Aeroshell W80 in his 310R with Camguard.

We switched to Aeroshell W100 for the summer, and Phillips X/C 20W50 for winter both with Camguard. We may just stay with it. It has more oil pressure and uses even less oil on the Phillips.

[PTK]

Quote: jetdriven

Our engine's previous owners used Aeroshell 15W50.  According to Ed Kollin (camguard inventor) and Mike Busch, its about the worst oil you use in a Lycoming, its 50% synthetic.  it runs off the cam after shutdown.  Also the most expensive.    FWIW Busch runs Aeroshell W80 in his 310R with Camguard.

We switched to Aeroshell W100 for the summer, and Phillips X/C 20W50 for winter both with Camguard. We may just stay with it. It has more oil pressure and uses even less oil on the Phillips.

[Sabremech]

I'd stick with the oil you've been running. If it's working and you don't have any issues, keep using it. Problems can arise when you start changing viscosities. I'm not a proponent of the additives either as there's no proof that I can see for myself to believe the marketing claims. Kind of like Chevron with Techron. What the heck is Techron? Probably not worth me buying their gas because they have a nifty marketing campaign. Just my .02 as an A&P/IA

[jlunseth]

The best information I have read about the difference between Shell and Phillips, is that Shell is part synthetic and therefore more expensive.  The synthetic helps to keep the oil from breaking down, but since we change oil in our aircraft engines between 25 and 50 hours, breakdown never is an issue.  Anyway, that is why I buy the less expensive Phillips and it seems to do the job just fine. 

[Mooneyjet]

Thank for the replys guys, im going to stick with the phillips, as for oil samples sent to the lab, they show good so far. So how about additives for the cam, if you are changing the oil so regulaly would it make much of a difference.

[jetdriven]

To reprint some of what I have posted on here before, and to add some fresh material.  Peter: You may not believe the opinions of experts but Kollin is an industry leading petroleum engineer and Mike Busch has managed to get 3000 hours a side from his 310 that he maintains and gives plenty of talks all year round about how to get that kind of service from your plane.  I have met the guy in person.  He practices what he preaches.

Sabremech:  Can you find me one shred of proof that "Problems can arise when you start changing viscosities?"    Just one.  There are plenty of white papers on Techron, it is the only additive that actually works.

We changed from Aeroshell 15W50 to Aeroshell W100 with Camguard at our first oil change. The engine has 1310 hours with no abnormalities other than a #2 cylinder valve guide failure.  However, our decision was not based on voodoo.  Heck the 15W50 bottle looked coolest and it cost the most, it must be the best, right? The decision was based on credible evidence that aviation oils containing PAO synthetic basestocks are less than optimal lubricants for an air cooled aircraft engine.  Mobil AV-1 was the first full synthetic oil and it was a spectacular failure. The PAO cannot carry away lead, and it drains back into the engine after shutdown in a matter of minutes leaving only a thin film to protect the camshaft. W100 took 3 days to drain that last quart back. User-flown aircraft that sit more than 7-10 days at a time tolerate this poorly.

 

OK, here is some info.  Enjoy.

from;  http://www.avweb.com/news/savvyaviator/savvy_aviator_52_thinking_about_oil_changes_196730-1.html

[Mike Busch]  My own personal experience agrees with this: I have investigated many cases of premature cam and lifter distress(generally caused by corrosion during periods of disuse) and without exception they all involved engines operating on Aeroshell 15W-50 multigrade.

 

Busch again: 

From:   http://lists.kjsl.com/pipermail/beech-owners/2008-August/090163.html

>These days when people ask me for a recommendation for oil usage in an owner-flown aircraft, I generally recommend either Aeroshell W100 plus ASL Camguard (which is what I'm using in my airplane), or Phillips XC 20W-50 plus ASL Camguard.  The Aeroshell monograde provides somewhat greater film strength under extreme pressure conditions (e.g., red-line RPM), while the Phillips multigrade provides better cold starting pourability.  My absolute LEAST favorite oil is Aeroshell 15W-50.  Every single case of premature cam and lifter spalling I've investigated turned out to be an engine that was running 15W-50.  IMHO it's simply the poorest possible choice for an owner-flown aircraft that flies irregularly and therefore is at rick of corrosion damage.

 

RAM AIRCRAFT:

From:  http://www.ramaircraft.com/Maintenance-Tips/Oil-Recommendations.htm

"Differing operating conditions and / or availability may warrant the use of multi-viscosity oils. Most important to RAM is that the oil be mineral based. RAM recommends a multi-viscosity ashless dispersant mineral based oil such as Phillips 66 X/C 20W-50. [RAM service history records indicate that Mineral Based AD oils perform significantly better than synthetic and semi-synthetic oils."

........
RAM service history records are much less favorable for engines that have a history of
being operated on synthetic blends or semi-synthetic oil products. RAM encourages using
Mineral Based (AD) Oils only, single or multi-viscosity as conditions require."

 

Ed Kollin:

from: from: http://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=58932&p=605424

First problem;
Polyalpha olefin (PAO), is the synthetic basestock used in AeroShell 15W-50 (at 50%) and Exxon Elite (at 26%) and the defunct Mobil AV1 (at 100%). It has excellent high and low temperature viscometric properties, high viscosity index (doesn't’t thin as much with increasing temp) and (low temp pour point) and good high temperature stability (when used with the proper antioxidant package). However, NONE OF THIS IS IMPORTANT FOR AIR-COOLED AIRCRAFT ENGINES! PAO has terrible solvency characteristics. It is so bad, that most additives will not dissolve in it. It needs to be combined with an ester (10-20%), alkylated naphthalene (5-25%) or mineral basestock (40-75% Aeroshell and Elite) just to get the additives to dissolve. This is fine for a heavily additized passenger car motor oil but NOT for a low additive treat rate oil used in a very high blow-by, leaded fuel aircraft engine. The ability to keep an engine clean by keeping combustion by-products in suspension is essential for an aircraft oil and the basestock works hand in hand with the dispersant to achieve this.

In my opinion PAO is the worst possible choice of basestock for piston aviation oils, and Exxon and Shell did not learn anything from Mobil’s AV1 spectacular failure. Mineral oils (non dispersant) by themselves, have difficulty solubizing the blow-by for long (witness the engine varnish with the use of non-dispersant oils) but it is nothing compared to the problem PAO has with it. The problem with Mobil AV1 was never the lead bromide (lead salt) particles, it has always been the partially combusted blow-by fuel in the crankcase that forms resinous varnish and captures the lead particles making a thicker deposit that is the problem. It was that way with Mobil AV1 and it remains so with the semi-synthetics.

 

 

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-12586945/Aircraft-engine-oils-BP-vs.html

http://www.avweb.com/news/maint/answers_about_oil_195194-1.html

 

Failure of Mobil AV-1: (100% synthetic. AS 15W50 is 50% synthetic.)

http://www.avweb.com/news/news/182891-1.html

http://kas.e.thomas.googlepages.com/Mobil.pdf

----“Most of the calls we get on the subject of cam scuffing come from users of 15W50”

[Sabremech]

Byron, sorry that you don't agree. Have you run an engine to TBO using no additives? Have you run an engine to TBO using additives? What's your documented difference in wear characteristics between the two? Do you have the data that supports using additives will cost you less when it comes time for overhaul? 

I certainly don't as I haven't owned my airplane long enough to get to TBO. Your best maintenance is regular oil changes. As far as your question about engine damage from changing viscosities, absolutely I've seen an engine ruin itself and having to make an emergency landing before the engine seized. 

I don't expect that I'll change your mind on any of this, but that's not my point. My point was to the original poster, which was keep running what your running and you're less likely to have problems. 

I appreciate your references and have listened to many of Mike Busch's seminars. They're very informative and useful to those folks who don't have a maintenance background. Do I believe everything he promotes? No. 

With that said, thanks for your input. I hope we've given the original poster the information he was looking for.

[jetdriven]

I changed FROM A/S 15W50 because there is enough evidence to suggest semi-synthetic oils are not as good as mineral oils in infrequently flown aircraft. Engines made TBO for decades before synthetic blends. The Camguard additive is a bet. Given Lycoming problems with camshaft failure I think its 29$ per oil change insurance. There is evidence fron Aviation Consumer that shows it works to extend the time metal parts develop corrosion. In our specific situation, the snake oil is 25$ per bottle, and it works out to a cost of 50c per hour.  The engine is 1400 hours since major, so I am going to pay 300$ extra to run it to TBO.  The engine time is 12$ an hour, or the extra 300$ is worth it if it extends the engine life by 25 hours.   What do you think?

You are the only person I have ever heard from that suggested changing oil viscosities caused an outright engine failure. Do youj have a tail number, NTSB report, anything?  I am curious if this was the sole cause. Did you do the teardown? Was it an approved oil for that engine?  I'm not calling you a liar, but this is truly something.

Quote: Sabremech

Byron, sorry that you don't agree. Have you run an engine to TBO using no additives? Have you run an engine to TBO using additives? What's your documented difference in wear characteristics between the two? Do you have the data that supports using additives will cost you less when it comes time for overhaul? 

I certainly don't as I haven't owned my airplane long enough to get to TBO. Your best maintenance is regular oil changes. As far as your question about engine damage from changing viscosities, absolutely I've seen an engine ruin itself and having to make an emergency landing before the engine seized. 

I don't expect that I'll change your mind on any of this, but that's not my point. My point was to the original poster, which was keep running what your running and you're less likely to have problems. 

I appreciate your references and have listened to many of Mike Busch's seminars. They're very informative and useful to those folks who don't have a maintenance background. Do I believe everything he promotes? No. 

With that said, thanks for your input. I hope we've given the original poster the information he was looking for.

[Sabremech]

Hi Byron, why don't you PM me and I'd be happy to continue our discussion. I'm not concerned whether you believe me or not. I've seen an engine failure going from W100 to 25/60. If you don't want to use the PM feature, my e-mail is sabremech@gmail.com.

Thanks,

[Vref]

Well, I have been investigating this camguard for a while now. The next two months my flying will be less due to weather. I am going to give it a try with camguard. For the European Mooney Pilots, I have located a distributor in Luxembourg ..GA Maintenance located on ELLX

I am using W80 plain so adding some corrosion protection will not hurt I guess......

I looks like there has been some engineering behind it....straight mineral Oil doesn't protect much against corrosion

I have seen recently a seneca III beautiful aircraft didn't fly enough so it had camshaft corrosion...$$$$$$$ to fix...

I am not  an oil scientist so I am not going into further chemical formulas...

rgds

Luc

[jetdriven]

I am going to chill out now.  But one more article, where Ed Kollin, the developer of Camguard, posts several times explaining what is in the oil we buy and what can work better.   Note, if you fly your aircraft every day it doesnt matter what oil you use.

http://www.piperowner.org/forums/topic.html?id=82256

[PTK]

There are two actions that will protect our engines. Both are completely within our control. 

1. Fly, fly, fly the aircraft often, and

2. Change oil regularly and frequently. I change mine q 25-30 hours max. I'm not an oil expert y any stretch of the imagination but this is my form of "cheap insurance."

If you read between the lines both Mr. Kollins and Mr. Busch do say this.

But I have one suggestion for these gentlemen. Why don't they R&D and bring to market their own aviation oil. After all they seem to think they know more than Shell, or anybody else! Then we could compare their oil on an even field with the rest. To sit on the sidelines and critique is generally considered cheap.

Shell and the others R&D these oils very carefully in the laboratory. They have teams of chemists constantly perfecting these formulas. They don't want us to alter it with additives. If they did they would tell us. What I haven't seen from Mr. Kollin is exactly how his additive alters the original oil formula. I wouldn't add anything in my oil for this very crucially important reason alone. I don't want to take a known quantity and alter it to an unknown!

As I have said before some things are best left to professionals. I think I'm going to make this my motto.

[danb35]

Quote: allsmiles

If you read between the lines both Mr. Kollins and Mr. Busch do say this.

But I have one suggestion for these gentlemen. Why don't they R&D and bring to market their own aviation oil.

[PTK]

Quote: danb35

Maybe you missed that Ed Kollins was the lead engineer on Exxon Elite?  Mike Busch isn't, and doesn't claim to be, a lubrication engineer, but it doesn't take one to look at data and draw conclusions.

I don't recall that I've seen Ed post the exact formulation of Camguard anywhere (nor, for that matter, has Shell posted the formulation of AeroShell), but he has indicated what types of ingredients are there.  It's my understanding that oil analysis results across a wide cross-section of the fleet are consistent with his claims.

[jetdriven]

Just how many aircraft engines did Mobil buy back with their stunning failure of Mobil AV1 full synthetic aviation oil?   Go read about that for a while, its absolutely shocking.  Maybe you can still find some, go ahead and put that in your airplane.  It was approved too.

Quote: allsmiles

There are two actions that will protect our engines. Both are completely within our control. 

1. Fly, fly, fly the aircraft often, and

2. Change oil regularly and frequently. I change mine q 25-30 hours max. I'm not an oil expert y any stretch of the imagination but this is my form of "cheap insurance."

If you read between the lines both Mr. Kollins and Mr. Busch do say this.

But I have one suggestion for these gentlemen. Why don't they R&D and bring to market their own aviation oil. After all they seem to think they know more than Shell, or anybody else! Then we could compare their oil on an even field with the rest. To sit on the sidelines and critique is generally considered cheap.

Shell and the others R&D these oils very carefully in the laboratory. They have teams of chemists constantly perfecting these formulas. They don't want us to alter it with additives. If they did they would tell us. What I haven't seen from Mr. Kollin is exactly how his additive alters the original oil formula. I wouldn't add anything in my oil for this very crucially important reason alone. I don't want to take a known quantity and alter it to an unknown!

As I have said before some things are best left to professionals. I think I'm going to make this my motto.

[PTK]

Mobil is not Shell. When it comes to aviation lubricants Mobil can't polish Shell's shoes!

Mobil is the new kid on this block who tried to adapt a full synthetic into aviation from their automotive Mobil 1 platform. They failed because aircraft engines are different than automobile engines. 

Shell on the other hand has been in aviation lubricants since before Jimmy Doolittle was running the company! He helped Shell develop 100 Octane fuel! He is also regarded as the father of instrument flying.

Aeroshell 15W50 is one of the best aviation oils on the market. It amazes me to see how some people are so easily swayed by some fast talking sales pitches from the sidelines!

[fantom]

Quote: jetdriven

 

[Parker_Woodruff]

I just dug up another case of 15W-50 I had laying around (bought cheap in bulk about a year ago).  After that I will be switching to Phillips.

[Hank]

If Phillips is so good for your engine, and Aero Shell is so bad, why do you continue to use the bad stuff and cause yourself problems? Ship it to me and I'll dispose of your unwanted 15W50 at no additional cost to your or harm to your expensive engine.  :-)  Cause I'm just a nice guy. Isn't "no corrosion" cheaper than "bad" oil "bought cheap in bulk a year ago"?

[PTK]

Quote: Hank

If Phillips is so good for your engine, and Aero Shell is so bad, why do you continue to use the bad stuff and cause yourself problems? Ship it to me and I'll dispose of your unwanted 15W50 at no additional cost to your or harm to your expensive engine.  :-)  Cause I'm just a nice guy. Isn't "no corrosion" cheaper than "bad" oil "bought cheap in bulk a year ago"?

[fantom]

Quote: Hank

If Phillips is so good for your engine, and Aero Shell is so bad......