Ground damage

[larrynimmo]

15 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

I don’t know.  But Beegles sold us the two used ones that are currently on my Mooney six or seven years ago after a tornado hit our hangar and damaged our originals beyond economic repair.  I think they were around $650/each shipped.  A bargain if you ask me.  The thing about M20 flaps is you’d think they are all the same but they are not. We had a hell of a time finding a used pair in good shape that were in our serial number range.  

Luckily, the elevators for the J model are the same throughout the production cycle…but still hard to come by.  Reskinning of the one elevator through beagle is over $4,000 plus 12+ weeks.

[Andy95W]

1 hour ago, Alan Fox said:

You need to have someone who knows these planes to inspect the empenagge FORWARD of the hinge/screwjack / pivot....   To rip skin from rivets is a tremendous amount of energy required ,  There is more damage than pictured....

⬆️⬆️⬆️ This.

Also, the pivot points where the empennage attaches should probably by checked for cracks.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, larrynimmo said:

Luckily, the elevators for the J model are the same throughout the production cycle…but still hard to come by.  Reskinning of the one elevator through beagle is over $4,000 plus 12+ weeks.

I believe that I have two sets of new elevator skins on hand, it that helps.  I would remove the entire tail group for a thorough inspection. As others have pointed out a large amount of force is involved in shearing the line of rivets.

Clarence

[Aerodon]

Larry,

My 172 partner pulled the plane out of the hangar and turned too soon and scraped the side of my car while I watched.   He paid for a new stabilizer tip and my car, but at the next annual we had some elevator repairs and a slightly buckled centre section.  Same incident or 40 years of pushing down on the tail to swing the plane around?

I would at least inform your insurance company - you don't have to proceed with a claim.  I would not use your common IA, ultimately he is going to make one of you unhappy with the repair cost or thoroughness.  I would get someone who is really knowledgeable about repairs to Mooneys.  There's at least one story on the web with a near fatality with that lower mechanism failing.  

There are enough 'good airframes' being dissembled for parts (BASPARTS), that you should be able to find complete assemblies.  Don't even think of bending any of those components straight.

My car has an automatic backup brake system, activated about 3 times in the 18 months I have had it - two false alarms and one 'probable save'.  It scares the crap out of me when it activates because it comes on so strong it actually feels (and sounds) like you have backed into something.  But each time it does it I will think of your Mooney.

Aerodon

 

[M20F-1968]

This is a problem you will want to report to your insurance company who will subrogate against the person who did the damage.  That person may or may not have insurance that will pay.  

If you can get the empennage to Beegles I would do so.  If you can get the whole plane to Beegles that is even better.  

I shipped my empennage from Dallas to Kerville by truck.  The A&P made a steel fixture which was made to hold the empennage in the same way it is monted to the plane.  The fixture was bolted to the floor of the truck.

Get the work done right.  You insurance will not raise your rates for doing so as you were not at fault and not involved.

John Breda

[larrynimmo]

This afternoon I looked it over with my AI and spoke with Don Maxwell( who examined pics) and believe a suitable repair can be made in place…the Ai was quick to point out that my measurement of almost 2” difference in height was inaccurate because the plane wasn’t level…less than 1” of horiz stab height difference…and it may not be perfect, but above all it needs to be safe.  The existing empennage is extremely rigid (not broke loose)

I’m still going to have to get an elevator regardless as if I need a whole empennage they are typically picked clean.

tomorrow we are going to drill out rivets and see where that takes us…no promises

and if it had to be perfect, I would send out the empennage and have it rebuilt in a jig…and likely be without my plane for 6+ months.

 

[PT20J]

Back in the mid ‘80’s I took a break from engineering and took a job one summer as a flight instructor at a Part 141 flight school in Anchorage, AK. I had a CFI applicant and we got to the part of the syllabus where we had to demonstrate spins. The company had a specific C-150 that was the only plane we were allowed to spin. We went out and stalled it and it snapped over and wound up and threatened to go flat - unlike any C-150 I had ever spun before. 

I discussed it with the mechanic and he told me that I was the first to spin that airplane after it had an engine failure on takeoff and landed on a building severely damaging the tail. They put it back together and it looked OK, but it wasn’t. I guess that airplane was designated for spins because they didn’t care much what happened to it.

[amillet]

“I guess that airplane was designated for spins because they didn’t care much what happened to it.”

or to you 

[Guest]

Remember the K model in England, the baggage door flew off and wrapped around the right stabilator tip?  It’s damage was more severe than this, it was repaired.  This one will live again.

Clarence

[LANCECASPER]

14 hours ago, larrynimmo said:

and if it had to be perfect, I would send out the empennage and have it rebuilt in a jig…and likely be without my plane for 6+ months.

You're repairing this for two reasons: (1) For you to fly safely again and (2) the next owner.

As much as we hate to think about it, this airplane will get sold someday. It needs to be repaired as close to perfectly as possible. The pictures you take throughout the repair, the logbooks and the detailed invoices will tell the story of how this was repaired and who repaired it. Take personal relationships out of the equation. You deserve to be made whole and have an airplane back that's as good as the one you had a few days ago. Some states even allow you to collect damages for loss of value. No matter how well it is repaired if you had identical airplanes sitting next to each other, people will pay more for the one without any damage history. You also deserve to be compensated for loss of use, even if it's just paying for a rental if you want to go flying.

Ask someone who has recently been through a similar situation @xcrmckenna

[A64Pilot]

We used to spin the 152’s in the 141 school I attended, it had a tendency to really mess up the gyros, after a couple of spins the Artificial horizon may be laying over and one time I remember the DG jumping 20 or 30 degrees or so every so often when we were in straight and level flight.

I don’t think spins were in the Syllabus, but many felt you weren’t a safe pilot if you didn’t recognize them and instinctively recover so we were taught spins.

So maybe they designated one to keep from scrambling gyros? I have electric gyro’s in my 140 and they don’t like being spun either.

Early 80’s in the Army unit I was in repaired a U-21 that had landed with the gear half way down, took over a year, on its test flight every time it approached a stall it would try to get over on its back as the right wing stalled well before the left, turns out it’s wing center section was bent changing the wings angle of incidence, but bent so gradually there appeared to be no damage, that airplane was taken apart and the pieces sent to Corpus Christi on a truck.

Hidden damage is the big issue with any repair, as in are you sure you found it all?

Edited March 16, 2022 by A64Pilot

[larrynimmo]

7 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

You're repairing this for two reasons: (1) For you to fly safely again and (2) the next owner.

As much as we hate to think about it, this airplane will get sold someday. It needs to be repaired as close to perfectly as possible. The pictures you take throughout the repair, the logbooks and the detailed invoices will tell the story of how this was repaired and who repaired it. Take personal relationships out of the equation. You deserve to be made whole and have an airplane back that's as good as the one you had a few days ago. Some states even allow you to collect damages for loss of value. No matter how well it is repaired if you had identical airplanes sitting next to each other, people will pay more for the one without any damage history. You also deserve to be compensated for loss of use, even if it's just paying for a rental if you want to go flying.

Ask someone who has recently been through a similar situation @xcrmckenna

The repair is amazing…the mechanic drilled out a bunch of rivets and got the twist out to within 1/4” one way and 1/8” the other way.  And he is preparing to do all the riveting.  There is no doubt that the elevator will need to be reskinned, but I am absolutely amazed by his magic…when it is done, you will never know except for the log book entries

[larrynimmo]

5 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

I think you are highlighting that if the geometry is twisted the plane may never fly straight again or it may have unexpected flight characteristics under duress.  As we know aluminum does not bend back into place.  

@larrynimmo mentioned that the stabilizer may be bent up 1 inch vertically.  How much is it twisted laterally? (distances between wing and stabilizer)  Does anyone know how sensitive flight characteristics are if the distances between wing and horizontal stabilizer are not symmetrical? @Alan Fox

As @LANCECASPER says one day you will need to sell this plane.  If the geometry is still twisted and not symmetrical after repairs, I personally would never consider it as a purchase candidate.

It's like buying a classic 60's car with a bent frame - looks great but will never drive right.

 

I did all of that. On the top drawing I started with the red 2” longer than green.  It is now less than 1/2”

on the bottom drawing red was 1” taller than green (once the plane was leveled).  Now I am within 1/2” and measurement of the twist at empennage is less than 1/8”

all of these measurements are without any tension applied. (But not riveted up again)

the plane looks absolutely perfect except for the horizontal stabilizer fairing on the pilot side…it will be replaced…and the empennage is rock solid…I assure you I will log everything and take pictures…

it would be good if some of my fellow mooneyspace group would go out and measure what the distances are on their undamaged planes…I would be most curious 

my mechanic told me that if you remove the empennage from the plane, that you really need to have a jig to rework it, or it will end up in worse shape

[larrynimmo]

7 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

We used to spin the 152’s in the 141 school I attended, it had a tendency to really mess up the gyros, after a couple of spins the Artificial horizon may be laying over and one time I remember the DG jumping 20 or 30 degrees or so every so often when we were in straight and level flight.

I don’t think spins were in the Syllabus, but many felt you weren’t a safe pilot if you didn’t recognize them and instinctively recover so we were taught spins.

So maybe they designated one to keep from scrambling gyros? I have electric gyro’s in my 140 and they don’t like being spun either.

Early 80’s in the Army unit I was in repaired a U-21 that had landed with the gear half way down, took over a year, on its test flight every time it approached a stall it would try to get over on its back as the right wing stalled well before the left, turns out it’s wing center section was bent changing the wings angle of incidence, but bent so gradually there appeared to be no damage, that airplane was taken apart and the pieces sent to Corpus Christi on a truck.

Hidden damage is the big issue with any repair, as in are you sure you found it all?

If I am not satisfied with the flight characteristics, believe me, I won’t live with it…I will do whatever it takes to make it right…this plane is special to me…and it is my forever plane…

when it’s done, I will let people know how it turned out…I am hopefully optimistic…I haven’t seen anything (so far) that gives me doubt.

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, larrynimmo said:

I did all of that. On the top drawing I started with the red 2” longer than green.  It is now less than 1/2”

on the bottom drawing red was 1” taller than green (once the plane was leveled).  Now I am within 1/2” and measurement of the twist at empennage is less than 1/8”

all of these measurements are without any tension applied. (But not riveted up again)

the plane looks absolutely perfect except for the horizontal stabilizer fairing on the pilot side…it will be replaced…and the empennage is rock solid…I assure you I will log everything and take pictures…

it would be good if some of my fellow mooneyspace group would go out and measure what the distances are on their undamaged planes…I would be most curious 

my mechanic told me that if you remove the empennage from the plane, that you really need to have a jig to rework it, or it will end up in worse shape

It sounds like good progress, but I’m not sure I buy the last sentence.  Tail groups are removed regularly.  I would be removing it to inspect for hidden damage.

Clarence

[A64Pilot]

I think he is saying remove it, then start drilling out rivets, without a jig, it will be difficult to get right.

Of course, that’s why jigs are made

[larrynimmo]

WAs able to get most of the twist out of the empennage…the spacing by the stabilizer fairing is down to less than 3/32”.  The empennage is extremely rigid and was re-riveted strong…a doubler installed…long term temporary repair made on the elevator ( to be replaced at annual along with the stabilizer fairings)

surprisingly…plane flew neutral in a one trip around the airport 

[carusoam]

Wow, that was quick!

Gravity on…!

-a-

 

 

[EricJ]

Dayum, that was quick.    Nicely done!

 

[Austintatious]

Ohh man, wild thread...

 

Reminds me of the time someone hit the trailing edge of the wingtip on my stepfathers Citation 501 with a golf cart.... that was about 100k to fix.  The guy that did it was puking in the parking lot after.

Good reminder to be very very careful with cars around aircraft.   I try to never point my truck at my plane and make sure to shut it off b4 I get out of it.   I need to be more diligent about warning other people that might drive in proximity to the plane about what not to do.

[larrynimmo]

I have met with the insurance aviation adjuster from the gentlemen’s car insurance.

he looked the plane over and has agreed with everything that has been done and spoke directly with my AI…he was very supportive of replacing the elevator with a factory new one…as long as the cost would not be excessive…and actually I was shocked by what I have been quoted.

First item is the elevator…

second and third item is for skins (which I won’t need if I buy the pre-assembled elevator)

fourth and fifth item are the root fairings.

all will need to be painted before installation 

[Hank]

Wow! I'm shocked too, Larry! That's all much less than I was expecting. But in this supply-chain-impoverished period, the lead times are unsurprising. 

[LANCECASPER]

There are definitely supply chain issues in every industry but I don't think the Mooney parts have anything to do with the current issues. Since late 2019 they've had a dozen people trying to keep a fleet of 7000 airplanes flying. But even before that some part would take 3-4 months. Back in 2009-2014 same situation, maybe even worse.

[PT20J]

Interesting. In mid 2018 when I was shopping for an M20J I looked at one that had an elevator ding. Mooney quoted $4731 for a left elevator (etched and alodined) and $385 ea. for skins. So, the elevator price actually went down slightly and the skin prices haven't changed.

Skip

[RobertGary1]

Happened to me down in Mexico. Had to convince someone to fly down to "repair" it. Might have made it worse but I flew it home and got it repaired.