Help me decide - Manual vs Electric Gear

[Niko182]

6 minutes ago, gwav8or said:

I’m leaning towards the IO-360 for 200 HP. Is there a 200HP version of the C?


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Yes. Its called the E

[MMsuper21]

I love my manual gear just as quirky as the Mooney itself.

But as mentioned don’t base buying decision on that, unless you have 2 identical ones.

Focus on avionics the glass bug will come and can cost as much as top end overhaul and tank reseal. 

How long does the electric one take to extend/retract? 

[A64Pilot]

1 hour ago, MMsuper21 said:

 

How long does the electric one take to extend/retract? 

I don’t know, 3 or 4 seconds maybe? Way faster than a C-210, about the same as a Bonanza I’d guess? You really don’t feel or hear much of anything, very unlike the C-210, dropping gear there it feels like a drogue chute. I don’t drop gear until I’m in the white arc though trying to be gentle on the actuator and gear doors etc, so maybe that’s why I don’t feel or hear much

The deal is, it’s so easy to do that it’s easier to forget, plus you don’t have the visual reference thing of the big chrome bar not being right in front of you that I’d bet gear ups in a manual airplane is rare, but that’s a guess I have no data

Maybe 5 sec?

https://youtu.be/R6ds3_qambU

Edited March 15, 2022 by A64Pilot

[carusoam]

Awesome question…

No matter how you search…

You will never find the right answer… for you…

1) You can see above… somebody took out the electric and swapped back in the manual…

2) If you have a sore right shoulder from an old injury… Manual may not be the best…

3) I swapped out the manual plane, and got fancy electric gear as part of the upgrade… that cost a ton…

 

4) It is great to have an all mechanical plane…

• Manual gear…
• hydraulic pump flaps…
• vacuum driven entry step…
• cable driven speed brakes…

5) You learn some about the forces it takes to move the gear around… with the manual system…

6) You can apply what you learn about the forces directly to the flaps…

7) Avoid exceeding the operating speeds of the flaps and gear… it will save you some dough in the long run…

8) With electric powered devices… you can’t get a feel for how the increasing airspeed directly affects the forces trying to bend things…

9) With manual gear… if you come out of the seat trying to stow the gear…. You got a free lesson in T/O procedures….  Delivered by your plane…

 

+1 Learn about the causes most GU landings… Having the bar up or bar down… doesn’t stop the mistake from happening… same with the switch being up or down…

There is a key word for this…. It’s called a ‘distraction’.   Unfortunately, the word uses a different meaning than usual one for this error…

Other words to describe this error…cognitive overload and brain fart…  
 

Avoid GU landings… use a checklist… gumps, gumps, gumps….

PP thoughts only not a CFI…

-a-

 

[MBDiagMan]

To begin with, I firmly agree that condition and equipment are more important factors in your purchase choice, but that isn’t what you asked in your OP.  I too have had both and I REALLY miss the manual gear in my first Mooney, a C.  I would still have that magnificent plane if I had not fallen and injured my shoulder.

After purchasing my electric gear F, I went through pure hell getting the electric gear sorted out.  A well known Mooney guru didn’t even get it fixed.  My local mechanic finally tore into it far enough to find an actuator problem.  I really lucked out on the overhaul of the actuator and they also sorted an electrical issue.  Since then the gear has worked fine, but after all I went through I still wonder if the gear will come up when off the ground.  Mine never failed to go down, just failed to come up.

If my shoulder could handle manual gear and I were looking for a Mooney I would be looking for the best one, but I would be hoping it had manual gear.  The simplicity and reliability just can’t be beat.

[MBDiagMan]

16 hours ago, Browncbr1 said:

I have a jbar F.  When I bought it, the market allowed the ability to seek it out.  I prefer the jbar.   In this market, get the best non-corrosion plane you can find and live with it.   The only draw back to the jbar is you have to watch out that nothing is in the way of swinging the bar.  

Yes, from the get go, it is important in a manual gear model to arrange headsets so that cords are to the left of the pilot and to the right of the copilot.  You don’t want the cord wrapped up in the gear handle.  
 

Don’t ask how I know.

[Skates97]

21 hours ago, kortopates said:

plus it seems gears folding on landing is more common on the manual gear. (perhaps just more deferred maintenance on the older manual gear planes though).
 

I think it is from pre-loads being off and not checking them every year like you are supposed to. 

 

[M20F-1968]

The manual gear is the only retractable gear that the FAA did not require a back-up system.  I am able to retract my J bar with two fingers into the up and locked position.  Takes about 3-4 seconds to cycle the gear.  

No switches to troubleshoot, no unavailable gears.  If kept maintained and rigged properly, it is equally as reliable, and perhaps more so, with less weight and less complexity, than electric.  The position of the J bar reflects exactly the position of the gear.  Pull down on the handle and you know the gear is locked down.

John Breda

[0TreeLemur]

A while back I picked up a hangar mate after he dropped his RV off to get some work done on it.  He is an 80-something retired USAF Col. and Delta Pilot.  Well on this particular flight, I lowered the gear and the darn green light didn't come on.  I raised my concern with the Col., saying "that's never happened before!"   He pointed at the J-bar in the gear down and locked position and just laughed!

It was an electrical issue on the indicator light. 

Have that happen with electric gear and nobody will laugh.

[Utah20Gflyer]

10 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Yeah.  Knowing that the micro switch for the gear down light is literally in the gear down lock block I consider the gear down indicator light to be a secondary indication that the gear is actually down at best.  The primary is a firm tug down on the Johnson Bar handle.  Actually about three of them on average, probably.  If not more.   

Same for me, in fact I never even look at the lights.  Gear down and locked is checked by tugging down on the j bar.   The lights are a waste of time in my opinion.  

[Hank]

18 minutes ago, 0TreeLemur said:

A while back I picked up a hangar mate after he dropped his RV off to get some work done on it.  He is an 80-something retired USAF Col. and Delta Pilot.  Well on this particular flight, I lowered the gear and the darn green light didn't come on.  I raised my concern with the Col., saying "that's never happened before!"   He pointed at the J-bar in the gear down and locked position and just laughed!

It was an electrical issue on the indicator light. 

Have that happen with electric gear and nobody will laugh.

I check the green light on base, and the floor indicator on final, since it's painted on the rod that connects the two main gear. The floor indicator cannot be wrong . . . .

[MMsuper21]

I did break my CFIs iPhone screen with the J bar during transition training.

I tried to retract the gear after take off, but it would not lock, hmm try again a bit harder. I asked the CFI to take a look since I want to keep my eyes outside. 
 

Oops his phone dropped out of his pocket. 
 

Now it’s part of the pre flight briefing. Empty pilots right pockets and left passenger pocket and no storage between front seats. Lesson learned, unfortunately at his cost. 

[Culver LFA]

49 minutes ago, MMsuper21 said:

Oops his phone dropped out of his pocket. 

How is this possible?!?! You found an instructor that had his phone in his pocket?  I thought all instructors tap tap tap on their phones for the entire training flight?  Must have been an old, I mean experienced,  instructor!

[MBDiagMan]

1 hour ago, 0TreeLemur said:

A while back I picked up a hangar mate after he dropped his RV off to get some work done on it.  He is an 80-something retired USAF Col. and Delta Pilot.  Well on this particular flight, I lowered the gear and the darn green light didn't come on.  I raised my concern with the Col., saying "that's never happened before!"   He pointed at the J-bar in the gear down and locked position and just laughed!

It was an electrical issue on the indicator light. 

Have that happen with electric gear and nobody will laugh.

Actually, it’s not a catastrophic situation in an electric gear model either.  There is a clear window near the trim wheel where you can see if the gear is down.  It’s probably a more reliable indication than a light.

[Keith20EH]

Love my E with Jbar, part of pax briefing is where back seaters can put their feet or “feed bag” so as not to interfere with gear retraction it extension.  Worst part of the short body Mooney is getting everyone in and out.  Once settled, usually there are no complaints.  Buy the best example of any Mooney you can afford and take care of it for the next owner, you won’t regret it.

[Mooneymite]

In the manual versus electric gear discussion we should also mention that from about 1969, Mooney changed more than just the gear retract mechanism.  Years prior to the electric gear had the shotgun instrument panels, hydraulic flaps that were prone to crack aft spars, lower yellow arcs, baffles...not a doghouse (for a few years) amongst other differences.  The POH was also improved in about 1969.

The electric gear was available as an option for a few years, but once all the C's were built with the electric gear as standard, the C was modernized in lots of ways.

While some of the improvements (dog house, throttle quadrant) are just about as controversial as the gear, the 1969 and subsequent C's and E's were the precursors of the 201.  Mooney never looked back.

So...it's not just about the gear.  Pilots of the more modern C's were also younger and better looking than the troglodyte manual-gear guys.    

[gwav8or]

In the manual versus electric gear discussion we should also mention that from about 1969, Mooney changed more than just the gear retract mechanism.  Years prior to the electric gear had the shotgun instrument panels, hydraulic flaps that were prone to crack aft spars, lower yellow arcs, baffles...not a doghouse (for a few years) amongst other differences.  The POH was also improved in about 1969.
The electric gear was available as an option for a few years, but once all the C's were built with the electric gear as standard, the C was modernized in lots of ways.
While some of the improvements (dog house, throttle quadrant) are just about as controversial as the gear, the 1969 and subsequent C's and E's were the precursors of the 201.  Mooney never looked back.
So...it's not just about the gear.  Pilots of the more modern C's were also younger and better looking than the troglodyte manual-gear guys.    

Hydraulic flaps prone to crack? Can you give a little more info please?

And “Dog House”?? First I’ve heard of that…


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[Mooneymite]

6 minutes ago, gwav8or said:

Hydraulic flaps prone to crack? Can you give a little more info please?

And “Dog House”?? First I’ve heard of that…

When Mooney went to the electric flaps, it changed the flap mechanism.  The old hydraulic actuator was attached to the aft spar, so if/when the flaps were stressed, the aft spar could crack....something to always have checked on a PPI on a Mooney.

On hot days, Mooney CHTs were hard to keep in the green, so Mooney changed the engine baffling design.  The cylinders are encased in a "box" to direct cooling air better to where it was needed.  If the doghouse is kept in good repair, it works great which was probably the reason Mooney switched to fixed, rather than adjustable cowl flaps.  However, many dog houses have deteriorated and do not do the job they were designed to do.  My C has the doghouse and even climbing out on a hot day in Atlanta CHT stays in the green.  A subsequent engine cowling design did away with the doghouse.  There were just a few years that incorporated them.

There are several threads on Mooneyspace dealing with these two issues.

[gwav8or]

When Mooney went to the electric flaps, it changed the flap mechanism.  The old hydraulic actuator was attached to the aft spar, so if/when the flaps were stressed, the aft spar could crack....something to always have checked on a PPI on a Mooney.
On hot days, Mooney CHTs were hard to keep in the green, so Mooney changed the engine baffling design.  The cylinders are encased in a "box" to direct cooling air better to where it was needed.  If the doghouse is kept in good repair, it works great which was probably the reason Mooney switched to fixed, rather than adjustable cowl flaps.  However, many dog houses have deteriorated and do not do the job they were designed to do.  My C has the doghouse and even climbing out on a hot day in Atlanta CHT stays in the green.  A subsequent engine cowling design did away with the doghouse.  There were just a few years that incorporated them.
There are several threads on Mooneyspace dealing with these two issues.

Makes sense, thanks.


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[EricJ]

On 3/15/2022 at 9:15 AM, Skates97 said:

I think it is from pre-loads being off and not checking them every year like you are supposed to. 

 

Between that and worn out down locks that's probably most of the gear collapses.    Mis-rigging doesn't seem to lead to collapses on electric gear, though, at least that I've ever heard of.

[mooniac15u]

53 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

There is a service bulletin to add a doubler to the aft spar to eliminate the cracking problem.  This doubler was subsequently incorporated into new production.  The cracking problem has nothing whatsoever to do with the flaps’ means of actuation.  It has everything to do with the presence or lack thereof of this doubler.  

I don't think that's true.  SB 217 for the doubler wasn't issued until 1979 which is long after they had switched to only electric flaps.  If they had known about the problem in the late 60's and started adding doublers for new airframes the SB would have been issued at that time. 

Also, the mechanisms function differently and attach to the spar differently and the SB clearly states that it's only for planes with hydraulic flaps.

[mooniac15u]

5 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

My previous 1978 J had the doubler from the factory.  But I admit that I didn’t look up the timing prior to posting. Thanks for the correction if that is the case.  Regardless, though, apply the service bulletin that was issued over 40 years ago and aft spar cracking is no longer an issue. 

Agreed.  I wasn't trying to make the case for electric over manual.  I've had both types and although I do like my electric gear and flaps it's not because I think they are inherently better mechanisms.

Of course it may be a challenge to source a doubler right now.

[Mooneymite]

On 3/16/2022 at 2:22 PM, mooniac15u said:

I don't think that's true.  SB 217 for the doubler wasn't issued until 1979 which is long after they had switched to only electric flaps.  If they had known about the problem in the late 60's and started adding doublers for new airframes the SB would have been issued at that time. 

Also, the mechanisms function differently and attach to the spar differently and the SB clearly states that it's only for planes with hydraulic flaps.

Here's a picture of the flap drive on a '74 C.  I don't have a picture of a hydrualic flap mechanism, but if someone else does maybe we could compare the two?  It does not appear that the electric flap drive touches the aft spar at all.  It is mounted on a heafty fuselage bulkhead and links directly to the flaps.

Edited March 17, 2022 by Mooneymite

[Kmac]

I would entertain an electric gear only if it could be converted back to manual.  After the correction I would keep all parts just in case of injury. 

[carusoam]

On 3/15/2022 at 12:15 PM, Skates97 said:

I think it is from pre-loads being off and not checking them every year like you are supposed to. 

 

+2 for the mention of the new down lock blocks…

One of the common manual gear failures…

Pilot failed to confirm the gear to be down AND locked…

There is a simple aluminum socket that is known to be a wear item….

They wear out every 40 years or so….

Easy to inspect for… the hole is egg shaped and not perfectly round…

The egg shaped ones also form a ridge deep in the hole…

The unknowing pilot mistakes bumping the ridge for locking the gear….

 

There are a few ways to check the manual gear is down and locked…

1) Green light is on… always comes on if it is set up correctly…

2) Pull the handle down…  won’t move if it is locked…

3) The Thumbnail test… if the thumbnail fits in the space… it ain’t locked…

 

Electric gear…

1) Green light…

2) green label appearing in a window on the floor… (physical, can’t confuse, great if your bulb just burned out)

 

The biggest failure… cog overload….

That’s why there is an opportunity to do three gumps checks… when only one is needed to work…

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic…

Best regards,

-a-

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