Need advice / sharing my concerns with someone

[redbaron1982]

4 minutes ago, JWJR said:

Did they remove that inspection panel ( the one the pics are from) during did the pre-buy?


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yes

[Pete M]

Can't believe this even a discussion. Call an aviation attorney in the state you bought the airplane in and start from there. He'll likely start with a letter to the shop demanding repair or restitution, then the negotiations start to avoid litigation. This caae is egregious. Theres no reasonable way you'd lose this one. Imagine listening to the a&p explain to a judge how spar cap corrosion, something so common and could cause the wings to fall off, is not something they look for. It's laughable.

[JWJR]

Ok a flashlight and a five dollar inspection mirror or a two hundred dollar articulation borescope could of easily detected the corrosion. The fact they did open the panel up definitely indicates it was a miss. So the question is why did they remove the inspection panel during the pre-buy? What were they looking for in there? Hmmmm.
Ok I feel like I’m stirring the pot here so I’ll stop. Try to reason with these guys and get it resolved. I just want to confirm your initial instincts that you were wronged and you have recourse.


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[DCarlton]

1 hour ago, JWJR said:

I respectfully disagree and so does my attorney sitting across from me right now.
A prebuy is exactly that a prebuy inspection. You may be an expert in FAA policy however a judge is not concerned with FAA policy at all. It’s as simple as it sounds. He paid to find deficiencies in the aircraft. They overlooked a SUBSTANTIAL one. Kinda like malpractice or a structural defect missed during a home inspection . We all know it was negligent and any subject matter expert will attest to the same. You can do a legal annual with an oil change ,compression check and verified AD compliance. The judges I know are concerned with making things right ..not paper contracts. If the work order says prebuy it is inferred that it is done to protect the buyer from major issues/expense. Unfortunately I’m related to a judge and spend lots of time with attorneys ( playing cards) and the ones I’ve mentioned this scenario to all said it’s a simple open and shut case for buyer. Now all that being said I believe that’s basically what he was trying to do … turn it into an annual. I don’t think anyone here with a straight face could say missing this during a pre-buy is not outrageous and unacceptable.


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If your perspective were to prevail across GA (any escape in a pre buy on a 30-40 year old airplane is negligent and we all know it), why would ANY mechanic EVER want to conduct a pre-buy when he's slammed with work already?  I'm not a mechanic but this thread convinced me I wouldn't do it without an indemnity agreement of some sort (and consider it a favor).   

Edited January 10, 2022 by DCarlton

[Aerodon]

I think I have read all the above posts, but a couple of additional comments that might help future buyers

1) I have learned the hard way too, buying  plane from a dealer with 550 SMOH (done by the dealer) that later turned out to be a top overhaul.  Forced an engine overhaul, (once again by the dealer, because the paperwork issue was found during an annual).  Dealer felt bad, and offered to pay half if the seller paid half.  Seller would not, so dealer did not.  Expensive learning curve.  With the knowledge and resources I have now, I would probably sue.

2) Cessna's have SIDS, SB's and AD's to find 'hidden damage'.  The really expensive spar carry through on 210's come to mind.  I would expect a pre purchase of the centre section to have at the very least a visual inspection of the area and a recommendation to to the AD.  Otherwise you very much run the risk of passing the pre-buy and failing the AD two months later and pending $$$$.    Same with the eddy current inspections of wing struts etc.  There's a visual inspection that would suffice for a PPI (pre purchase inspection) but you could fail 2 months later.   So there's a lot of risk, and maybe another way of dealing with this is to have a buyers agent / advisor, especially for first time buyers.

3) Purchase price comes into it - I have bought a couple of planes based on my own assessment and the knowledge that the deal is good enough to allow for fixing a few things.  In fact I prefer buying a plane with a runout engine and prop, that reduces a substantial portion of the PPI, and leaves money towards the engine.  And corrosion is my number one concern, one of the hardest things to detect, quantify and rectify. Its not hard to look inside a few inspection panels and see how clean the aluminum is to make an overall assessment.  I sold a Piper recently, and the buyers inspector knew exactly where to of look for the worst corrosion (steel against aluminum attachments).  And they found it and fixed it at my expense.   I treated it as a positive experience, because the shop knew their stuff, the buyer got a good plane.  I represented the sale as it being a very good plane. (2000TT, 20 SMOH, 200 SNEW prop, premium price).   A lot of the time the potential problems are built into a lower purchase price, just like it is for cars.  If you buy a 20 year old car with 200,000 miles on it, what do you expect?  Or what does a reasonable buyer expect?  In BC a private seller can sell a vehicle as is where is.  A dealer cannot.  And if you are silent on a major issue you could still get sued.

4) In this particular case, focus on getting the shop to repair it properly so that you can feels safe flying it, and also eventually sell the airplane with a clear conscience.  A good logbook entry will describe the problem found, the repairs done etc.  so when you sell, you don't have to mention anything more.  Get some outside assistance on determine the correct repair.  Personally I don't think the seller knew.  But if he was getting his annual inspections done for $500, then he should have known.

5) Once it is all done and you are sitting with the airplane, completed logbooks and invoice, arrange a meeting with the shop.  Until the work is done and invoiced, it is not clear if you have suffered a loss? And threatening a lawsuit at an early stage is a guaranteed way of getting a poor repair and your plane put in the back corner and we will still be discussing this in 6 months. If you really feel they wronged you, tell them so and ask them to make it right.  If they refuse, pay them in full, write 'under protest' on your check, take your stuff and leave.  They are legally obliged to take the payment and let you leave.  Then file a claim, or a small claim court and go tell your story.  I suspect a small claim judge might be quite sympathetic, there is an expectation that a reasonable PPI of a car, house, boat etc. will identify major issues, and the guys doing these inspections are liable for the stuff not found.

6) I've never threatened to sue, or resign or fire someone.  When I get that 'feeling' that it is necessary, I turn things over in my mind until I am sure I am going to go one way or another.  I have won every single lawsuit I have been involved in, and succesfully defended every claim against me. 

7) Good  luck in getting through this, keep positive, it can all be sorted out.

 

Aerodon

 

 

[corn_flake]

I could not agree more.  We need to look at this from a shop/AP/IA prospective as well.  There are better way to resolve our differences.  

 

 

[RobertGary1]

On 1/7/2022 at 4:37 PM, 1980Mooney said:

You need to look at your Purchase Contract carefully.  Does it say that 1) all Airworthiness Issues found before the sale will be repaired by the Seller or does it say 2) The Seller certifies that the plane is Airworthy at the time of sale.

If it is the first it means on the day of the sale (after the Pre-buy) that all identified Airworthiness issues had been addressed by the Seller.  It was only after title had passed to you that an Airworthiness Issue was found. Anything found after sale is your cost.

If it is the second then the Seller is on the hook because he sold you a plane that has Airworthiness Issues (i.e. Not Airworthy).  There are cases on line that tell Sellers to never agree to this language in a sale for this very reason

What fool would sign that? If I were selling the plane I’d say the qualification of airworthiness is between you and your mechanic. No sane owner would make such a guarantee unless he’s an a&p. 

[JWJR]

If your perspective were to prevail across GA (any escape in a pre buy on a 30-40 year old airplane is negligent and we all know it), why would ANY mechanic EVER want to conduct a pre-buy when he's slammed with work already?  I'm not a mechanic but this thread convinced me I wouldn't do it without an indemnity agreement of some sort (and consider it a favor).   

Don’t miss understand me. Let’s say the cam is bad and this leads to an overhaul 30 hour post prebuy inspection. Ok the shop cut the filter and it was clean. During test run up oil pressure was good and the engine ran smooth. Ok the shop did their due diligence. No one expects them to pull cylinders to get a look at the cam. I alway say what is working today can be broken tomorrow. This ( the corrosion) was a simple miss in plain sight. No excuses. The panel was off. The perspective of getting what you pay for does in fact prevail across the GA landscape …. With the pilot folks I know anyway. Anyone trying to make an excuse for the shop is full of BS. If the shoe was on the other foot I wonder what their perspective would be then.


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[DCarlton]

17 minutes ago, JWJR said:

Don’t miss understand me. Let’s say the cam is bad and this leads to an overhaul 30 hour post prebuy inspection. Ok the shop cut the filter and it was clean. During test run up oil pressure was good and the engine ran smooth. Ok the shop did their due diligence. No one expects them to pull cylinders to get a look at the cam. I alway say what is working today can be broken tomorrow. This ( the corrosion) was a simple miss in plain sight. No excuses. The panel was off. The perspective of getting what you pay for does in fact prevail across the GA landscape …. With the pilot folks I know anyway. Anyone trying to make an excuse for the shop is full of BS. If the shoe was on the other foot I wonder what their perspective would be then.


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I would have to access that exact location myself to agree with you.  Have you ever removed all of the inspection plates on your Mooney, cleaned all the dirt and grime, and inspected the structure from every possible angle (100% coverage)?  I've owned my airplane for 18 years and it seems like every annual I look a little deeper into places I haven't looked before and see things I haven't seen before.  If you have access to a procedure for inspecting the wings for corrosion, please share (which panels to remove, which areas are typical hots spots, etc).  I'd like to spend several days doing that during my next annual.  Seriously.  Any mechanic I ever work with will know there will never be litigation from me or my family and whatever we do together is a partnership.  BTW, back to my question; why would ANY mechanic EVER want to perform a pre-buy on a 30-40 year old plane; there is nothing but risk and little to gain (if you are correct).  

Edited January 10, 2022 by DCarlton

[carusoam]

6 hours ago, redbaron1982 said:

Here the pictures of the corrossion... main take away for me? It was easily visible from an inspection panel... hard to miss.

It does look like exfolliation/intergranular, which is bad, but the extension is not great, and after cleaning doesn't look like much material was lost...

 

 

RB,

Thanks for sharing the pics!

 

An invitation for @M20Doc to have a look at the corrosion pics.  (Before and after rough cleaning)

 

Often corrosion measurements are depth measurements, probably in thousandths of an inch…

The pic looks like granules may have been liberated… that’s a lot of metal that has sloughed off… typical of the aluminum alloy used for strength…

Cleaning, if possible… probably requires removing the rivets in the area…

corrosion can spread between plates and down rivet holes….  When it spreads between plates, the volumetric increase is strong enough to pop the heads off rivets…

 

Getting to the solution… starts with the defining all the challenges… we’re getting closer to that with these pics…

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic…

-a-

[JWJR]

Hey …then why the hell did they pull the panel?
You can’t be serious!


Yes I’ve had everyone of my panels opened.
I use a screw gun borescope,mirror and flashlight. Takes an hour plus a side. I look at pc tubing, pushrods, signs of mice , and for corrosion.

When I had my prebuy the mechanic missed a few things. Nothing major! I fixed them and never even mentioned them to the broker or mechanic.

Spar corrosion is a Major issue. A deal breaker and for some a planes a cause to scrap em.

Why do mechanics do prebuys….. hmm for money maybe $1700.00 or so. If they are going to do them they should be done right.


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[1980Mooney]

54 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

What fool would sign that? If I were selling the plane I’d say the qualification of airworthiness is between you and your mechanic. No sane owner would make such a guarantee unless he’s an a&p. 

Uhhh....well here is one that Mike Busch tells about a Cirrus SR22 sale.  The Seller wrote a contract that said “The aircraft…is being sold in an airworthy condition with all of its systems being functional and operating.”.  The Buyer prevailed although there were mistakes made by all parties involved. I suspect there are more cases.

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2016/july/pilot/savvy-maintenance

Edited January 10, 2022 by 1980Mooney

[JWJR]

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[RobertGary1]

2 hours ago, Pete M said:

Can't believe this even a discussion. Call an aviation attorney in the state you bought the airplane in and start from there. He'll likely start with a letter to the shop demanding repair or restitution, then the negotiations start to avoid litigation. This caae is egregious. Theres no reasonable way you'd lose this one. Imagine listening to the a&p explain to a judge how spar cap corrosion, something so common and could cause the wings to fall off, is not something they look for. It's laughable.

Once an attorney is involved all other simpler forms of resolution are discarded. Not sure it would be my first action. 

[jetdriven]

3 hours ago, Mcstealth said:

No, he started his own shop a couple of hangers down. 

It’s been several years, but the guy owned that owned bought Dugosh from Ronnie or some guy who had a bonanza and made a fortune printing billboards with a printer.  When I was there they were about 15 airplanes in there, nobody had a license and only half of them were Mooney‘s. But that was a few years ago. 

[jetdriven]

2 hours ago, Pete M said:

Can't believe this even a discussion. Call an aviation attorney in the state you bought the airplane in and start from there. He'll likely start with a letter to the shop demanding repair or restitution, then the negotiations start to avoid litigation. This caae is egregious. Theres no reasonable way you'd lose this one. Imagine listening to the a&p explain to a judge how spar cap corrosion, something so common and could cause the wings to fall off, is not something they look for. It's laughable.

Here’s the thing, if you notify him of an intent to sue, he’s required to notify his insurance company of this material event or otherwise he’s on the hook. Sometimes that’s enough to get them off their ass to fix this 20 or $30,000 event

[DCarlton]

Is spar cap corrosion common and a major issue in Mooneys?  Does anyone know of a service bulletin, AD or inspection procedure to reference?  I'm aware of the service bulletins for the steel tubing and the flap hinges but that's all.  

[Schllc]

2 hours ago, DCarlton said:

If your perspective were to prevail across GA (any escape in a pre buy on a 30-40 year old airplane is negligent and we all know it), why would ANY mechanic EVER want to conduct a pre-buy when he's slammed with work already?  I'm not a mechanic but this thread convinced me I wouldn't do it without an indemnity agreement of some sort (and consider it a favor).   

There is substantial legal precedent for this type of thing, especially in the arena of home inspections. The liability will likely cap at the cost of the inspection. 
And, as usual, the attorneys will win. The judge won’t care if it’s a house, or a plane or a boat...
For what it’s worth, I think the shop missed it, and are at fault, but you will not likely find justice in litigation unless you just want to be told you are right, regardless the cost. 
 

[WaynePierce]

When I purchased my "J" three years ago now, it was my first airplane purchase. I knew nothing about the process. I went with AOPA's suggestion on the bank to use. The bank had their own form they needed signed by the A&P doing the PPI. It asked and required a check beside each thing the bank required to be done for the PPI and the A&P had to sign the document and return to the bank. To be fair I'm not sure if wing spar corrosion was on that form or not but it would surprise me if it weren't.

Sorry you are going through this but it's going to be better once the spar is repaired or replaced.

 

[redbaron1982]

Just to set my position on this, my objective is not making a mess of this. Attorneys would be the very last resource.

My objective is to complete the annual, and get an airworthy and safe aircraft, so I can start walking (should I say flying) the road (should I say victor airway) of aircraft ownership and XC the US with it.

Everybody makes mistakes, it happens all the time. From my point of view, this is a mistake of the shop doing the prebuy.

If this mistake cost a "reasonable" amount, let's say ~3k to fix it, I'm ok with paying for it without any complain or anything. I would be saying "hey, thanks you discovered that!" and paying the bill and that's all.

Now, if this comes to be a, let's say 15k repair, then, considering that this was the shop mistake (in my view), I would like the shop to recognize the mistake and split the repair, maybe I cover the parts and they cover the labor? I don't know, whatever agreement that ease the impact of me of their mistake.

If in the second scenario (big repair) we cannot come to an agreement I would move to other type of actions, starting by making sure as most people in the GA buisness are aware of this, writting to Mooney (with all the issues Mooney is having now, I'm not sure this would be of much impact) and lastly, using my brand new AOPA membership for legal advice on how to proceed.

Let's hope that this is all resolved by either being a not huge repair, of if it is, for the shop to come forward, recognize their mistake, and taking part of the hit.

[1980Mooney]

15 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

Is spar cap corrosion common and a major issue in Mooneys?  Does anyone know of a service bulletin, AD or inspection procedure to reference?  I'm aware of the service bulletins for the steel tubing and the flap hinges but that's all.  

There are no AD’s or SB’s for Mooney metal wings, spars or spar caps. This is not like certain Cessna or Piper where there are either advised or mandatory specific instructions where and how often to look for corrosion or other issues. However it will be interesting to see the final NTSB report on the Mooney bravo crash in Minnesota last August where the wings folded up. If corrosion played a role I would expect to see a mandatory service bulletin for immediate inspections. 
 

The original Mooney’s with wooden wings had a SB 

Edited January 10, 2022 by 1980Mooney

[EricJ]

23 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

Is spar cap corrosion common and a major issue in Mooneys?  Does anyone know of a service bulletin, AD or inspection procedure to reference?  I'm aware of the service bulletins for the steel tubing and the flap hinges but that's all.  

I don't know of a SB/SI or AD regarding aluminum airframe corrosion.   The SMM for my J just has very generic language about corrosion inspection and the Mooney 100-hour inspection guide just says, "1. Inspect exterior & interior of aircraft for general condition, collision damage, loose rivets, dents & corrosion."

Since it can happen essentially anywhere, there's usually not special direction to look in a particular place.

 

[ZuluZulu]

4 hours ago, JWJR said:

I respectfully disagree and so does my attorney sitting across from me right now.
A prebuy is exactly that a prebuy inspection. You may be an expert in FAA policy however a judge is not concerned with FAA policy at all. It’s as simple as it sounds. He paid to find deficiencies in the aircraft. They overlooked a SUBSTANTIAL one. Kinda like malpractice or a structural defect missed during a home inspection . We all know it was negligent and any subject matter expert will attest to the same. You can do a legal annual with an oil change ,compression check and verified AD compliance. The judges I know are concerned with making things right ..not paper contracts. If the work order says prebuy it is inferred that it is done to protect the buyer from major issues/expense. Unfortunately I’m related to a judge and spend lots of time with attorneys ( playing cards) and the ones I’ve mentioned this scenario to all said it’s a simple open and shut case for buyer. Now all that being said I believe that’s basically what he was trying to do … turn it into an annual. I don’t think anyone here with a straight face could say missing this during a pre-buy is not outrageous and unacceptable.


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Is your attorney a litigator?

[carusoam]

4 minutes ago, philip_g said:

Seems this has just become a cyclical conversation of the same things over and over 

We got to see the pics today…

See how well rb is holding up…

Making headway is going to take a fare amount of time…

 

Reading every post on MS… is pretty cyclical…

-a-

[ilovecornfields]

22 minutes ago, ZuluZulu said:

Is your attorney a litigator?

I think he already mentioned the attorney was an amateur poker player.