Panel Upgrade thoughts

[JoeM]

For your mission, I would swap the 430 for a 430W. After you sell the 430 (FB or Ebay) and install the WAAS antennae with new coax, you won't have spent much and will be WAAS capable, which is very helpful in the IFR system. It should play well with the G5s and GFC 500. If you can't do it all at once, that is a simple step 2. But I would do it soon, as I wonder how long the 430 non-WAAS units will command what they do now on the aftermarket. 

[MMsuper21]

Slowly pondering this topic also wouldn’t a Garmin gps 175 with some G5s do the job at the lowest cost? 

[LANCECASPER]

6 minutes ago, MMsuper21 said:

Slowly pondering this topic also wouldn’t a Garmin gps 175 with some G5s do the job at the lowest cost? 

Initial cost yes, but not long term cost. The KT76A transponder is going to go one of these days then you wish you would have done the 375. Go in once do it right and fly it for 10-15 years or more. The proof that this is a good strategy is when you look at King panels that were put in 30 years ago. They were expensive at the time but people have certainly gotten their money out of them. But now there a lot more capabilities available. You can buy it now and enjoy it or you can discount your airplane for not having it when you sell it and you didn't get any personal value out of that.

[PeteMc]

I'd say the GI275 as well.

Look at the GNX75 for WAAS and ADS-B.  Keep the 530 for Comm, ILS and backup GPS.  Still means you'll probably want to keep another Comm.

You'd have to check the prices, but another combo would be GI275x2, GNC355 (WAAS GPS & Comm), GNS530 (existing, Comm, ILS, BU GPS), GTX345 (ADS-B In/Out)

[cwaters]

On 1/6/2022 at 10:03 AM, LANCECASPER said:

You are correct - my mistake. In thinking this through if you have to do it on a tighter budget, swap your 430 for a 430W that's on the market and then sell your 430. Probably a net cost of $1500- $2000 plus a WAAS antenna and new RG400 coaxial. Keep your KX155. But then add your G5s or (GI-275s preferably) and your GFC500. If you're satisfied with the ADS-B out only  that you're using you've still gained coupled WAAS approaches and better situational awareness with the new indicators.

this is likely what will happen if the shop has a 430W laying around that they will swap me with some $$ thrown in, the ADSB-out I'm happy with for now and using a stratus for "in" and it works rather well with the ipad for dysplay 

[cwaters]

17 hours ago, MMsuper21 said:

Slowly pondering this topic also wouldn’t a Garmin gps 175 with some G5s do the job at the lowest cost? 

potentially but a new 175 is still 4.5AMU, If I could "swap" my 430 for a 430W I'd be looking at ~2AMU in difference I think. and not need to wire in an entirely new unit and create a 3rd nav system in the plane (175, 430, Klx 155) 

[carusoam]

23 hours ago, cwaters said:

this is likely what will happen if the shop has a 430W laying around that they will swap me with some $$ thrown in, the ADSB-out I'm happy with for now and using a stratus for "in" and it works rather well with the ipad for dysplay 

Do you know @Alan Fox?

He is pretty good for trading and pre-flowned avionics….

 

He swapped out my analog KT76A for a digital version of nearly the same thing…

Swapping for something that includes ADSB out makes sense long term…

Best regards,

-a-

[cliffy]

From the other side of the coin ! ---

I went through the same mental gymnastics all last year. 

Decided to get rid of ALL the old tech/failure prone electronics and go Dynon new all the way. Why fight old electronics by doing half way "fixes"?

The problems will never go away with any of the old stuff

Don't get in  a hurry as their AP may very well be done later this year and all that will be needed is 2 servos and installation. Everything else is already in the HDX

I went with their basic package of 10" HDX, D-10 Stdby, new comm, new 1090 xponder, ADSB IN module for around $18K with an install added of  @ 60 manhours AND that includes their complete engine monitor system to display on the 19" HDX screen. 

I also added a PS Engineering NEW audio panel after much cogitation. 

The only "old" tech I kept was my MX-11 com for a final last chance com. Not really worried about radio failures.

When it comes out of the shop I will have ALL NEW ELECTRONICS AND INSTRUMENTS NEVER  to fight the old junk again. 

The only things needed for full IFR capability will be a 430WAAS (if I wanted other than just GPS approaches) If not a $4500 175 would work fine and a 429 converter box.

My entire panel will have just the HDX screen and the D-10 Stby    Nothing on the right side and only the audio panel and Mx-11 in the middle.

Another thought to consider is the escalating values of our airplanes make this a prefect time to upgrade and realize a lot more of the input cost IF we have to sell.

I don't plan on selling any time soon.

 

[cwaters]

21 hours ago, cliffy said:

From the other side of the coin ! ---

I went through the same mental gymnastics all last year. 

Decided to get rid of ALL the old tech/failure prone electronics and go Dynon new all the way. Why fight old electronics by doing half way "fixes"?

The problems will never go away with any of the old stuff

Don't get in  a hurry as their AP may very well be done later this year and all that will be needed is 2 servos and installation. Everything else is already in the HDX

I went with their basic package of 10" HDX, D-10 Stdby, new comm, new 1090 xponder, ADSB IN module for around $18K with an install added of  @ 60 manhours AND that includes their complete engine monitor system to display on the 19" HDX screen. 

I also added a PS Engineering NEW audio panel after much cogitation. 

The only "old" tech I kept was my MX-11 com for a final last chance com. Not really worried about radio failures.

When it comes out of the shop I will have ALL NEW ELECTRONICS AND INSTRUMENTS NEVER  to fight the old junk again. 

The only things needed for full IFR capability will be a 430WAAS (if I wanted other than just GPS approaches) If not a $4500 175 would work fine and a 429 converter box.

My entire panel will have just the HDX screen and the D-10 Stby    Nothing on the right side and only the audio panel and Mx-11 in the middle.

Another thought to consider is the escalating values of our airplanes make this a prefect time to upgrade and realize a lot more of the input cost IF we have to sell.

I don't plan on selling any time soon.

 

I've looked at the Dynon system and the only hang up is the AP for me, they have been working it for a few years now and havn't gotten there just yet. 

 

I love the thought of going that route and the cost of the dynon system for the product you're getting. 

I already have an EDM 900 can their system just tie into those sensors or will I need to pull that and sell it separately?

So why do you need a 430W for full IFR capability? what can you not do with the Dynon with nonWAAS GPS? I like my IFR capability (would like to go WAAS in the future maybe just not now) 

 

So was youre full in cost in the 24k range (if you don't mind saying) 

 

I like my edm 900 so what are your thoughts on going with the 7" screen and keeping the edm ? I also don't have any experience with dynon systems 

[cliffy]

The Dynon AP is being worked on but one has to remember they are at the same mercy as TT in that regard. If the FAA don't work Dynon doesn't get it done. Dynon just got the approval for the Beech A36 a couple weeks ago that has been waiting for months for the FAA  The Mooney is in line for cert but behind 2 other airplanes BUT if the FAA will work they can get it done this year. I'm gambling on it as all I'll need is the 2 servos - everything else is already there in the HDX. As a backup one can put in at B/K TT autopilot IF it gets certified first (but at a higher cost than just 2 servos for the Dynon AP). I also have a couple Brittian APs in a box IF I have to go that way. 

The Dynon system is not IFR certified (never has been never will be ) WITHOUT  a certified WAAS navigator such as a 430 or IFD440. Yes it uses a WAAS antenna but for VFR navigation purposes only. Remember this Dynon comes out of the experimental/sport aviation world not the fully certified world so the initial design didn't include full IFR software capability for IFR navigation but it can follow several IFR certified navigators. (Garmin 175 @ $4500 or 430 for full IFR rather than just GPS IFR). 

If you like your EDM900 then you can keep it. I didn't have that so I wanted all the old engine gages gone. You will need to decide what "old" stuff you want to keep (radios, nav heads, xponder, ADSB IN/OUT etc and tailor a Dynon system to what you want. I wanted ALL the old crap gone so I went for the full "Well Equipped" package.  My panel will have only the 10" HDX screen and the D-10 backup AI system- nothing else on the panel. Your mileage may vary. 

The package I got is right around $18,000 

Well-Equipped Single 10” Display and Core System, plus Engine Monitoring, ADS-B In/Out, Transponder, COM Radio, and IFR Connectivity.

You don't need to have the engine monitor added into the package if you don't want it.

I dropped the IFR connectivity (429 module) as I have no interest anymore in flying IFR 

My installer quotes @ 60 hrs for install so for wherever your shop rate is figure it in. Mine is $100/hr

Quotes to install wildly vary and some form of cutoff is needed in case the hrs go high. Don't give any shop just a blank check without some kind of a  negotiated cutoff about 3/4 of the way through to gage progress vs quote.

I have other work being done so my total bill will be somewhat higher

[cwaters]

13 hours ago, cliffy said:

 

The Dynon system is not IFR certified (never has been never will be ) WITHOUT  a certified WAAS navigator such as a 430 or IFD440. Yes it uses a WAAS antenna but for VFR navigation purposes only. 

 

My installer quotes @ 60 hrs for install so for wherever your shop rate is figure it in. Mine is $100/hr

Quotes to install wildly vary and some form of cutoff is needed in case the hrs go high. Don't give any shop just a blank check without some kind of a  negotiated cutoff about 3/4 of the way through to gage progress vs quote.

 

thanks for the information, can you or anyone explain the need for WAAS gps not just a IFR gps like a 430 nonWAAS (currently what I have) 

 

can you explain the negotiated cutoff a bit, I'm newer to ownership (1yr) and this will be my first major work. Is this saying about 3/4 the way through the install you negotiate with the shop saying that you only pay for so much and if they go over that then they eat the cost ?

[cwaters]

So what are people's thoughts on why to not go the Dynon route?

they seem like a pretty good glass option. 

[David Lloyd]

I had Dynon Skyview in my RV7.  Loved it.  When I looked at upgrading the Mooney, I watched as Dynon missed promised action on autopilot approvals.  Not altogether their fault but since the Dynon would not play with my working 60-2 Stec I went in another direction.  Two years ago, if Dynon showed progress with Mooney approvals, it would be in my panel rather than GI-275s.

And the reason Dynon uses a WAAS GPS is to provide position info for ADSB using only their system.  In addition, they use that position info to add stability to their ADAHRS an provide a very nice VFR only GPS navigator.  The ADSB approved antenna is about $600.  If you were to use another source for the ADSB info, you could use a less expensive (about $250)  Dynon antenna that would add stability to their ADAHRS and provide a very nice VFR only GPS navigator.  Either way, Dynon recommends using their antenna.  The STC may demand it.

[cwaters]

21 minutes ago, David Lloyd said:

I had Dynon Skyview in my RV7.  Loved it.  When I looked at upgrading the Mooney, I watched as Dynon missed promised action on autopilot approvals.  Not altogether their fault but since the Dynon would not play with my working 60-2 Stec I went in another direction.  Two years ago, if Dynon showed progress with Mooney approvals, it would be in my panel rather than GI-275s.

And the reason Dynon uses a WAAS GPS is to provide position info for ADSB using only their system.  In addition, they use that position info to add stability to their ADAHRS an provide a very nice VFR only GPS navigator.  The ADSB approved antenna is about $600.  If you were to use another source for the ADSB info, you could use a less expensive (about $250)  Dynon antenna that would add stability to their ADAHRS and provide a very nice VFR only GPS navigator.  Either way, Dynon recommends using their antenna.  The STC may demand it.

so they have to use a WAAS gps they can't use an ifr gps to be ifr certified?

I can't seem to find this information on their page, I'm IFR currently and can't see giving that up to be VFR only 

[TheAv8r]

It starts getting into more preference based than function based when you're discussing Dynon v. Garmin. It's kind of like the Apple vs. Android debate. Both are capable units that can do most of the same things as each other, but their UI and UX are completely different, as is support & stability, so it comes down to your preference between the two. Personally, I think Garmin's equivalent to the HDX in the G3X is a lot more user intuitive, cleaner and more polished. Everything looks better and easier to read. But this is just my opinion and my preference, both are offering you the same capabilities in the cockpit. See below for screenshot comparisons between the two.

[cwaters]

2 minutes ago, jacenbourne said:

It starts getting into more preference based than function based when you're discussing Dynon v. Garmin. It's kind of like the Apple vs. Android debate. Both are capable units that can do most of the same things as each other, but their UI and UX are completely different, as is support & stability, so it comes down to your preference between the two. Personally, I think Garmin's equivalent to the HDX in the G3X is a lot more user intuitive, cleaner and more polished. Everything looks better and easier to read. But this is just my opinion and my preference, both are offering you the same capabilities in the cockpit. See below for screenshot comparisons between the two.

thanks for the pictures here, I'm leaning more to the dynon, I like dedicated buttons and the tilted bottom bevel and large knobs vs the thinner concentric knobs 

 

my main question now is the required equipment for ifr certification, I have a non-WAAS GPS now and wondering if I NEED to upgrade that or not (its a 430Non-WAAS so it is IFR GPS)

 

 

[TheAv8r]

18 minutes ago, cwaters said:

thanks for the pictures here, I'm leaning more to the dynon, I like dedicated buttons and the tilted bottom bevel and large knobs vs the thinner concentric knobs 

 

my main question now is the required equipment for ifr certification, I have a non-WAAS GPS now and wondering if I NEED to upgrade that or not (its a 430Non-WAAS so it is IFR GPS)

 

 

I'll let someone who knows more about Dynon's requirements chime in here, but you know my $0.02 from my earlier comments . Get modern and get WAAS. Don't cripple an advanced avionics package by not having WAAS.

[cwaters]

3 minutes ago, jacenbourne said:

I'll let someone who knows more about Dynon's requirements chime in here, but you know my $0.02 from my earlier comments . Get modern and get WAAS. Don't cripple an advanced avionics package by not having WAAS.

I know I know, with the reduced price of the dynon system I could likely stay in my budget and put a 440 or maybe 650 in (650 would likely bust budget by a little) so I could likely do a WAAS GPS and the dynon system but would not have an AP for a year or more (to get certified and to financially save to it again) or the G5s and GFC500 

 

decisions decisions, those long XC flights would be nicer with an AP esspecially in IMC but with the advancements in the dynon system the "Highway in the sky" and synthetic vision seems like it would also help a lot hand flying in imc 

side not I do 0 night flying IFR or VFR 

[Baker Avionics]

6 minutes ago, jacenbourne said:

I'll let someone who knows more about Dynon's requirements chime in here, but you know my $0.02 from my earlier comments . Get modern and get WAAS. Don't cripple an advanced avionics package by not having WAAS.

If you want it to be IFR, you need a separate Navigator or GPS input.  I would not even entertain a non-WAAS unit.  The internal is non-WAAS on the Dynon system and the system is phenomenal if you are not wanting to get into the Big G vortex.  We are doing a dual Dynon in a J model right now and will post pics here, hopefully, when it is done.  Although @NotarPilot probably will post it here as well.  

[cwaters]

4 minutes ago, Baker Avionics said:

If you want it to be IFR, you need a separate Navigator or GPS input.  I would not even entertain a non-WAAS unit.  The internal is non-WAAS on the Dynon system and the system is phenomenal if you are not wanting to get into the Big G vortex.  We are doing a dual Dynon in a J model right now and will post pics here, hopefully, when it is done.  Although @NotarPilot probably will post it here as well.  

my WAAS/NON-WAAS line of questions is more so, to be IFR certified with teh Dynon system, do I NEED a WAAS GPS or will my current non-WAAS 430 sufice?

i understand not putting in a non-waas unit and i understand the reasons to upgrade the gps but that is not my question here, I am trying to figure out if this will be a 18k worth of parts or 26k worth of parts project and what to prep the CFO in the house for 

[Baker Avionics]

Sorry, to answer that question, no it doesn't NEED to be a WAAS.

[David Lloyd]

WAAS does not make anything IFR.  In fact, you might not even be able to buy a non-WAAS GPS any longer.  It doesn't matter if you buy a Garmin G3X, Garmin G500, Dynon Skyview, etc., they are mainly fancy displays.  Each needs an IFR navigator such as a Garmin 430, 530, 650, 750, 175, 355, 375 or Avidyne 440, 550 etc. to be able to file IFR and fly a GPS approach.  Dynon does not and has stated many times they have no intention of developing an IFR navigator.  They do have a fine display that can be used for IFR as long as it is connected to an appropriate navigator.

[cwaters]

7 minutes ago, David Lloyd said:

WAAS does not make anything IFR.  In fact, you might not even be able to buy a non-WAAS GPS any longer.  It doesn't matter if you buy a Garmin G3X, Garmin G500, Dynon Skyview, etc., they are mainly fancy displays.  Each needs an IFR navigator such as a Garmin 430, 530, 650, 750, 175, 355, 375 or Avidyne 440, 550 etc. to be able to file IFR and fly a GPS approach.  Dynon does not and has stated many times they have no intention of developing an IFR navigator.  They do have a fine display that can be used for IFR as long as it is connected to an appropriate navigator.

This is exactly what I thought but then kept reading here that it needed a WAAS GPS to be IFR and was thinking that sounded wrong. It would work perfectly fine with my current non-waas gps and would not deminish the current capability or expand it (other than having a nice dysplay and not round guages anymore) and would only add synthetic vision I think (thats internal to the HDX)

[David Lloyd]

55 minutes ago, cwaters said:

This is exactly what I thought but then kept reading here that it needed a WAAS GPS to be IFR and was thinking that sounded wrong. It would work perfectly fine with my current non-waas gps and would not deminish the current capability or expand it (other than having a nice dysplay and not round guages anymore) and would only add synthetic vision I think (thats internal to the HDX)

Some older non-waas gps units such as the 430 and 530 will work, some older stuff may not.  What do you have?  Dynon Certified website has a FAQ section under customer support.  Answers some of your questions.

[cwaters]

13 minutes ago, David Lloyd said:

Some older non-waas gps units such as the 430 and 530 will work, some older stuff may not.  What do you have?  Dynon Certified website has a FAQ section under customer support.  Answers some of your questions.

its a 430Non-WAAS, thanks I'll check it out some more, didn't see this in the initial skim