VFR vs IFR

[will1874]

Hello all, 

I'd like thoughts / advice on the following:

mission: KBDR - KFME (Bridgeport, CT to Tipton field just south of Baltimore, in the  D.C. SFRA)

The last two two times I flew it I filed IFR and I don't like the routing I get (see below) or the altitudes they assign (too low). I'd prefer to go at 8,000-9,000 feet for better rides, and (as I'm new to the airplane) more time / options if there's an engine issue. 
 

I'm considering going VFR next time to stay west of New York / Philly.  I've been in the airline world for the last 20+ years and don't recall ever flying VFR through class B. Do any of you do this routinely? 
 

I've completed the DC SFRA training but have yet to operate VFR in that airspace. 
 

I welcome your suggestions. 

Thanks, 

Will

[201Mooniac]

Out here on the west coast I've flown VFR through Class B many times with no issues.  It is best to get local knowledge about expected routes and altitudes as they are typically no less restrictive than IFR.  I once had a trip I wanted to do VFR into the LAX Class B and I called approach ahead of time and asked what was a likely routing, they were happy to help and provided lots of useful information that made the trip much less stressful.

[A64Pilot]

Depends on the class B and how busy it is. Most often if you try to go through Atl you’ll get the remain clear of class B airspace, but sometimes I’ve been routed directly over the middle of the Atl airport, but not real often.

From a safety perspective in my opinion it’s a no brainer especially in heavy traffic area like Class B. IFR is much safer.

[201er]

Just go direct VFR. It's no big deal. NY is pretty easy to work with. Philly is going to send you to Modena no matter what you're doing. Patomac will tell you to stay out of the BWI Bravo. Just make sure you're squawking and talking the entire time you are in the SFRA.

[Niko182]

If the conditions were VFR i think I'd rather do this VFR. Both the PHL and NY class B top out at 7,000 feet. I'd probably do this flight at 10,500 ft and fly direct from KBDR to waypoint SUTBE, then RIISE, and then KFME. I don't know what you fly, but at 140 knots climb speed climbing at 1000ft average up to 7000,ft , it would probably take me about 10 minutes to fly direct from KBDR to the closest point of NY's Class B. With that being the case, I'd already be over 7000ft in which case I don't have any airspace to worry about until the I need to deal with the SFRA. I'd personally climb up to 10.5 so It would be less likely to be vectored around. I'd start my decent right around the time I pass KEVY airport and plan to be at a max altitude of 3000ft by the time I'm at the SUTBE waypoint. Thereafter, I'd continue down to 1300ft and stay under the BWI class B airspace. I used RIISE as the next waypoint just as a measure to fly around the Bravo airspace going all the way down to the surface, and then land at FME.

 

I've spent countless hours flying around Bravo airspaces, and 90 percent of my flights have me flying under, over, or within the bravo airspace. they're easy to navigate as long as you know what you need to stay clear of. If anything, ask ATC for help and most of them are willing to help you out.

[Shadrach]

I am based very close to the SFRA.  I’ve landed at Tipton several times. Your chances of getting a bravo clearance in the area are largely dependent on traffic, controller and route of flight.   There is no need for a bravo clearance to land at Tipton. The bravo shelf is 1500 over the airport and pattern altitude is 1000 MSL.  Staying west of Philly is probably a good idea but not necessary in terms of descent planning. File a SFRA flight plan entering at Paleo gate and fly the VFR corridor to Tipton.  I find that the controllers in the northern sector of the Wash-Tri area are more helpful then those in the southern sectors. I navigated through the Bravo many times via the Baltimore Vortac at low altitudes. I have some great images somewhere of me crossing over BWI at 1500 MSL.

Edited November 12, 2021 by Shadrach

[PeteMc]

I'm with @201er and @Niko182..  If the Wx if VFR, just go VFR.  Much easier around here.

I'd probably start my climb for at least 7500 and contact NY (typically 125.7 out of FRG) and tell them you'll be over-flying the CBA and thought they'd like you on frequency. 

[Shadrach]

One thing to add about flying the corridor this time of year. Being relegated to 2500’ or lower can mean a lousy ride for the initial or final portion of the flight.  Keep that in mind for your passengers. The last time I launched out of Tipton it was windy and very bumpy. I was running a friend up to Lancaster to pick up a car. On departure our teeth were getting rattled below 2k. The controller (Potomac app.) assigned a SFRA departure heading that was much more direct our destination then flying to our filed gate. She also cleared me to climb into the bravo Altitude pilot’s discretion. I often find the Potomac Tracon controllers to be frustrating but sometimes you get one that really is trying to provide great service to everyone.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Shadrach

[Ragsf15e]

3 hours ago, will1874 said:

Hello all, 

I'd like thoughts / advice on the following:

mission: KBDR - KFME (Bridgeport, CT to Tipton field just south of Baltimore, in the  D.C. SFRA)

The last two two times I flew it I filed IFR and I don't like the routing I get (see below) or the altitudes they assign (too low). I'd prefer to go at 8,000-9,000 feet for better rides, and (as I'm new to the airplane) more time / options if there's an engine issue. 
 

I'm considering going VFR next time to stay west of New York / Philly.  I've been in the airline world for the last 20+ years and don't recall ever flying VFR through class B. Do any of you do this routinely? 
 

I've completed the DC SFRA training but have yet to operate VFR in that airspace. 
 

I welcome your suggestions. 

Thanks, 

Will

All the other guys had good advice.  I’d go vfr above them as well.  Just have a plan for being denied entry if you plan on using any class B (maybe during descent) because it’s a definite possibility.

[DXB]

I fly in this area all the time. Whether you go VFR or IFR, they'll put you at whatever altitude they want you at in the NYC and Philly class Bs  - in my experience it's not that different on VFR flight following vs. IFR.   If you want max discretion, go VFR and stay clear of Bravo airspace until you get near Baltimore / SFRA.  Flying in the SFRA is no big deal when VFR.  All else being equal, I tend to enter and exit the SFRA IFR just 'cause I'm lazy -I don't want to waste mental energy thinking about SFRA flight plan entering through Wooly gate blah blah blah....  

[will1874]

1 hour ago, DXB said:

I fly in this area all the time. Whether you go VFR or IFR, they'll put you at whatever altitude they want you at in the NYC and Philly class Bs  - in my experience it's not that different on VFR flight following vs. IFR.   If you want max discretion, go VFR and stay clear of Bravo airspace until you get near Baltimore / SFRA.  Flying in the SFRA is no big deal when VFR.  All else being equal, I tend to enter and exit the SFRA IFR just 'cause I'm lazy -I don't want to waste mental energy thinking about SFRA flight plan entering through Wooly gate blah blah blah....  

so you'll file an IFR to a fix just to get out? Like I could file IFR to say EMI and just say in the remarks that it's just for exiting the SFRA? 

[DXB]

1 minute ago, will1874 said:

so you'll file an IFR to a fix just to get out? Like I could file IFR to say EMI and just say in the remarks that it's just for exiting the SFRA? 

I tend to file the full route to destination and then tend to cancel, or not, once I'm out of the SFRA, depending on circumstances and mood.  I've never tried filing IFR to a fix.  To be honest, I only do 3-4 departures per year out of the SFRA, usually from KGAI. I think the folks based inside the SFRA get equally comfortable with any flavor of departure.  For me, it's easier to just file IFR than refer back to that kneeboard reference. 

[rotorman]

Years ago when I worked for Sikorsky Aircraft I flew this route many times to DC from just N of BDR. I know staying high was a stated goal for Will 1874, but just once he should fly the NY exclusion on the Hudson River below the Class B.  No need to talk to controls. Just self announce on the common frequency entering and exiting the exclusion. The views of the city and the surrounding are are are worth it and just it's good fun.

[will1874]

Years ago when I worked for Sikorsky Aircraft I flew this route many times to DC from just N of BDR. I know staying high was a stated goal for Will 1874, but just once he should fly the NY exclusion on the Hudson River below the Class B.  No need to talk to controls. Just self announce on the common frequency entering and exiting the exclusion. The views of the city and the surrounding are are are worth it and just it's good fun.

I definitely plan on this as soon as I find a day that's not so bumpy!


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[201er]

3 hours ago, will1874 said:

I definitely plan on this as soon as I find a day that's not so bumpy!


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I don’t recommend doing it “below the bravo.” Way too many helicopters and altitude below my liking. Tower will clear you to do the same through Bravo at 1500 or 2000 with traffic advisories. And you don’t have the 140kias speed restriction.

Look, any birdbrain can do it!

 

[Austintatious]

Ehh, I have to deal with Bravo airspace on both ends of my most common trip, FTW - GLS.  So both the DFW and the Houston Bravo snafu's. 

They pretty much treat me as IFR traffic, so I gain no benefit.... What really pisses me off though is that coming out of GLS, I will ask for flight following.  What drives me nuts is that they will keep me low, out of the bravo and way off route.  When I tell them or ask if I can climb or turn more towards destination they tell me "No" because of IFR arrivals into IAH.  Im sitting there wondering why I even called for flight FOLLOWING.  I could just turn the radio off and go on my way and just stay clear of the Bravo.  The controllers don't seem to grasp the " flight FOLLOWING" concept.   I want to be talking with them for my and other aircraft's added safety, but I don't HAVE to be talking to them for what I want to do.  So I am about to just stop calling for VFR FF altogether and save myself 15 min of flying.... But It shouldn't have to be that way.  Someone needs to send out a memo to ATC and tell them that their behavior is going to decrease safety levels as people will simply not call for Flight following to avoid being controlled.

And the other thing they do, both on arrival and departure is to take me way down low and out over the bay... So low and far out that if I have an engine failure, Ill be swimming.  Again this is with VFR flight following... yet they boss me around like I am IFR traffic.  So once again, my solution seems to be turning off the radio and flying how I want.

[N201MKTurbo]

I have filed IFR out of KCHD to get out of a presidential TFR that required IFR only. I put my destination as a waypoint 10 miles south of the airport. In the remarks I put "get me out of the TFR prefer 150 degrees and 5500 feet". My clearance was "After departure turn 150 degrees climb 5500, report leaving the TFR". I should have added to the remarks that I intend to cancel outside the TFR. They asked me about that.

I have been flying to Santa Barbara for work for the last year or so. 5 trips so far. I have done a couple IFR and the rest VFR. If I go IFR they always route me over Palmdale no matter what I file. This adds like 50 miles to the trip. I just started going VFR direct FIM PSP at the mid teens. I am completely out of everybody's airspace, but SoCal really doesn't like me flying through there. It is raining Boeings the whole way. On Wednesday they said to me "You know you are flying through some very heavy approach and departure corridors? To which I replied "between the two of us we can make this work" He said "Roger".  Its funny, they vector me like I'm going jet speeds. They vectored me behind some jets that would clearly pass in front of me with miles to spare. I don't think they are very good at handling the mix. That wasn't always the case.

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, Austintatious said:

Ehh, I have to deal with Bravo airspace on both ends of my most common trip, FTW - GLS.  So both the DFW and the Houston Bravo snafu's. 

They pretty much treat me as IFR traffic, so I gain no benefit.... What really pisses me off though is that coming out of GLS, I will ask for flight following.  What drives me nuts is that they will keep me low, out of the bravo and way off route.  When I tell them or ask if I can climb or turn more towards destination they tell me "No" because of IFR arrivals into IAH.  Im sitting there wondering why I even called for flight FOLLOWING.  I could just turn the radio off and go on my way and just stay clear of the Bravo.  The controllers don't seem to grasp the " flight FOLLOWING" concept.   I want to be talking with them for my and other aircraft's added safety, but I don't HAVE to be talking to them for what I want to do.  So I am about to just stop calling for VFR FF altogether and save myself 15 min of flying.... But It shouldn't have to be that way.  Someone needs to send out a memo to ATC and tell them that their behavior is going to decrease safety levels as people will simply not call for Flight following to avoid being controlled.

And the other thing they do, both on arrival and departure is to take me way down low and out over the bay... So low and far out that if I have an engine failure, Ill be swimming.  Again this is with VFR flight following... yet they boss me around like I am IFR traffic.  So once again, my solution seems to be turning off the radio and flying how I want.

This is why I rarely use flight following, and even more rarely around congested areas.   Leaving Palm Springs a couple weeks ago VFR the tower essentially handed me off to departure on a heading that was less than optimal.   I was a little puzzled whether I really needed to do that, but I switched to departure.   I couldn't get a word in edgewise.  The controller was seriously busy, and finally just said, "Everybody standby, I'll get to you one at a time," and started going down his list.   A while into it he said my tail number even though I'd never managed to make contact.   I just told him I wanted to proceed VFR, he said, "Cancel flight following?"  "Affirm, please."   Got out of each other's hair, for sure.   There was no value add there on either side, and I rarely find that there is.

[N201MKTurbo]

9 minutes ago, EricJ said:

This is why I rarely use flight following, and even more rarely around congested areas.   Leaving Palm Springs a couple weeks ago VFR the tower essentially handed me off to departure on a heading that was less than optimal.   I was a little puzzled whether I really needed to do that, but I switched to departure.   I couldn't get a word in edgewise.  The controller was seriously busy, and finally just said, "Everybody standby, I'll get to you one at a time," and started going down his list.   A while into it he said my tail number even though I'd never managed to make contact.   I just told him I wanted to proceed VFR, he said, "Cancel flight following?"  "Affirm, please."   Got out of each other's hair, for sure.   There was no value add there on either side, and I rarely find that there is.

On the way back on Wednesday I had just crossed BXK on my way to KCHD and they handed me off to Luke Approach. They immediately said " proceed to Chandler south of the Estrella's. To which I replied "Cancel Flight Following". I got the message, he didn't want to deal with me.

Edited December 11, 2021 by N201MKTurbo

[Will.iam]

Living just north of DFW bravo airspace, when I fly southbound, I fly vfr corridor until I’m passed alliance airport and then pickup my IFR or vfr  clearance because if I get it sooner they ALWAYS send me to the west side of alliance and add 20 mins to my trip. Ironically, coming back home northbound from the south I routinely get direct through the bravo airspace and never west of alliance, I wonder if the south controllers ever talk to the north controllers as they handle traffic very differently into the same bravo airspace!