Requesting Advice on Mooney Purchase

[Nate G]

Hi Everyone,

I'm Nate, a student pilot going for my private about 26 hours in, and a prospective future Mooniac. I'm currently in the process of purchasing an M20F and was wondering if I could run this over with those experienced with Mooneys and flying in general; everything is all new for me!

I contemplated all makes and models from C172s to Arrows and considering that speed, efficiency, and good looks are at the top of my list, I decided that I must get a Mooney, probably an M20J I thought for its speed, style, and popularity. My goal is to finish my private pilot and go on to get my instrument rating.

I have been checking Trade-a-Plane, Controller, etc multiple times every day the past several months for the ideal aircraft for me and encountered the following 1969 M20F listed at $105,000:

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20F+EXEC+21&listing_id=2398664&s-type=aircraft

The airplane has all of the features I want in it: 201 mods and panel, Ovation-style paint, updated interior, electric gear, autopilot, decent avionics, IFR capable, among other things. The engine is nearing overhaul with a TTSN of 1875. I reviewed the logs and it looks like it has been flown regularly about 50-100 hours/year since the new engine was installed in 1996. It had good compressions every year up until the 2020 annual. After, it had all piston rings, intake manifold seals, and exhaust gaskets replaced and compressions were strong in the August 2021 annual.

I have offered full price as there has also been other interest in the airplane. However, as a part of due diligence, I would just like to make sure that the price I'd be paying is fair. What do you guys think? I will be putting the airplane through a thorough prebuy inspection including cylinder borescope.

Thanks!

[RoundTwo]

I would check out Savvy Pre Buy. They will do a free log book review. Nothing trips my trigger other than the fresh annual. You need to make sure it was a real annual and not a “pencil whip” annual in anticipation of selling it. Take it to a good Mooney shop for a pre buy inspection. Cole Aviation in Dalton, GA would be my choice if the plane is in Huntsville.

Good luck,

R2

[jaylw314]

That's a pretty pricy M20F, once you factor in the cost of potential overhaul, you're smack in the middle of the M20J price range.  I don't know what the value of all those mods are, but there are equivalent M20J's in the $100-120 range.  The J's tend to have higher demand, so prices and resale value may be a bit higher in general 

That's not to say the J's are any better (the F is pretty much the same with speed mods), but the given fact that no modifications are necessary, the J is worth considering if resale value is on your mind, especially since you seem interested in 201-type speed mods in the first place

As to that particular F, the only other gotcha is that the GNS480 is no longer supported by Garmin, so repairs may not be possible moving forwards.

Edited November 7, 2021 by jaylw314

[DXB]

28 minutes ago, Nate G said:

Hi Everyone,

I'm Nate, a student pilot going for my private about 26 hours in, and a prospective future Mooniac. I'm currently in the process of purchasing an M20F and was wondering if I could run this over with those experienced with Mooneys and flying in general; everything is all new for me!

I contemplated all makes and models from C172s to Arrows and considering that speed, efficiency, and good looks are at the top of my list, I decided that I must get a Mooney, probably an M20J I thought for its speed, style, and popularity. My goal is to finish my private pilot and go on to get my instrument rating.

I have been checking Trade-a-Plane, Controller, etc multiple times every day the past several months for the ideal aircraft for me and encountered the following 1969 M20F listed at $105,000:

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20F+EXEC+21&listing_id=2398664&s-type=aircraft

The airplane has all of the features I want in it: 201 mods and panel, Ovation-style paint, updated interior, electric gear, autopilot, decent avionics, IFR capable, among other things. The engine is nearing overhaul with a TTSN of 1875. I reviewed the logs and it looks like it has been flown regularly about 50-100 hours/year since the new engine was installed in 1996. It had good compressions every year up until the 2020 annual. After, it had all piston rings, intake manifold seals, and exhaust gaskets replaced and compressions were strong in the August 2021 annual.

I have offered full price as there has also been other interest in the airplane. However, as a part of due diligence, I would just like to make sure that the price I'd be paying is fair. What do you guys think? I will be putting the airplane through a thorough prebuy inspection including cylinder borescope.

Thanks!

That plane looks sweet.  Price is high by conventional standards, but who knows in the bonkers current market - it may very well get full price.  You can start there and work the price down depending what prebuy turns up.  As always, start the inspect with the major deal killers - spar corrosion, steel frame corrosion, copious metal in suction screen and/or filter, evidence of undocumented and/or poorly repaired damage. If you get it, be of a mindset to shell out for an overhaul in the not too distant future - who knows when the time will actually come.  And hurry up and finish your PPL so your new Mooney doesn't sit around and rot !  You could train in it also, but that will slow down your license considerably and also require you to find a Mooney-specific CFI who is willing to take you on for primary training.  

[ArtVandelay]

I can’t believe owner doesn’t fix the (fuel or oil) pressure gauge and just marks it inop, isn’t either required?

[RoundTwo]

Just now, ArtVandelay said:

I can’t believe owner doesn’t fix the (fuel or oil) pressure gauge and just marks it inop, isn’t either required?

But then what would he use the new oil pressure gauge he installed for? 

[Bob E]

You're only 26 hours in?  THERE IS NO RUSH TO PURCHASE!  Don't make the mistake of putting yourself under artificial pressure and offering to buy an aircraft just because someone else is interested.  That's especially true for a full-price offer.  Especially, especially true for an aircraft that you don't know much about because you haven't done YOUR OWN pre-buy.

Your enthusiasm is great! Don't turn it into regret by acting in haste. The aircraft does indeed look gorgeous, and the current owner is a serious pilot. On the other hand, almost by definition, you know far less than you need to know about that particular aircraft and about aircraft in general. For example, one thing you need to know is even if the aircraft is squawk-free when you buy it, you will still end up spending far more than you expect to make fixes and upgrades.  Not only the engine, but much of the instrumentation and avionics are nearing the end of their useful life. 

Have you thought about insurance for a complex aircraft when you have less than 100 hours of total time?

At the very least, make your offer contingent on an acceptable pre-buy, which will include an inspection of both the aircraft and its logbooks. If you lose the aircraft to someone savvier, quicker, and more experienced, so be it. The used Mooney market is nationwide.  You'll find exactly what you need -- and MooneySpace folks are always happy to help.

 

 

 

 

[Bob E]

17 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

I can’t believe owner doesn’t fix the (fuel or oil) pressure gauge and just marks it inop, isn’t either required?

It looks like the owner marked the original gauge "inop" and installed a standalone oil pressure gauge just to the lower right of the prop control - probably because he couldn't find a replacement for the one in the instrument cluster." Not a very good place to hide such a crucial gauge.

[skydvrboy]

Unless I’m missing it completely this plane doesn’t have an engine monitor. That would be a non starter for me at this price point. Not because it’s expensive to add, but rather because it means the previous owner was more interested in the paint and fancy interior than he was about the health of the engine.

[KLRDMD]

In my opinion it is overpriced by $25k for what it is. The avionics are a few generations old and not supported well, the engine will need overhaul sooner rather than later and even with the mods it is still an F model.

But, I buy airplanes with selling them in mind.

[Utah20Gflyer]

This plane has had a bunch on money spent on mods and cosmetics.  Which if they are of the variety you would want to do yourself may make the plane more valuable to you.   The engine may run well past tbo, especially with new cylinders but that doesn't increase the value any in my mind.  You should factor in major engine work soon because that could be a real possibility.   The avionics are meh, not terrible, not great.  

I guess I would say if aesthetics are your primary goal then this may be a good plane for you.  If you are primarily concerned with overall value - dollars spent for functionality I'd say it doesn't fit that bill very well.  You could get an equally functional F model mooney for 75-80k that just isn't as pretty.  So if you want to spend an extra 30k for pretty that's ok, just realize that is what you are doing.  

[Guest]

It’s the oil pressure gauge which is labelled inoperable not the fuel pressure gauge and there is an engine monitor on the right side. It appears to be an earlier Insight GEM.

Observe, examine and read before typing!

Clarence

[RoundTwo]

13 minutes ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

This plane has had a bunch on money spent on mods and cosmetics.  Which if they are of the variety you would want to do yourself may make the plane more valuable to you.   The engine may run well past tbo, especially with new cylinders but that doesn't increase the value any in my mind.  You should factor in major engine work soon because that could be a real possibility.   The avionics are meh, not terrible, not great.  

I guess I would say if aesthetics are your primary goal then this may be a good plane for you.  If you are primarily concerned with overall value - dollars spent for functionality I'd say it doesn't fit that bill very well.  You could get an equally functional F model mooney for 75-80k that just isn't as pretty.  So if you want to spend an extra 30k for pretty that's ok, just realize that is what you are doing.  

An ugly plane is only $40k away from being a beauty queen, and a beauty queen dressed just like you want her to be.

[LANCECASPER]

7 hours ago, Nate G said:

Hi Everyone,

I'm Nate, a student pilot going for my private about 26 hours in, and a prospective future Mooniac. I'm currently in the process of purchasing an M20F and was wondering if I could run this over with those experienced with Mooneys and flying in general; everything is all new for me!

I contemplated all makes and models from C172s to Arrows and considering that speed, efficiency, and good looks are at the top of my list, I decided that I must get a Mooney, probably an M20J I thought for its speed, style, and popularity. My goal is to finish my private pilot and go on to get my instrument rating.

I have been checking Trade-a-Plane, Controller, etc multiple times every day the past several months for the ideal aircraft for me and encountered the following 1969 M20F listed at $105,000:

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20F+EXEC+21&listing_id=2398664&s-type=aircraft

The airplane has all of the features I want in it: 201 mods and panel, Ovation-style paint, updated interior, electric gear, autopilot, decent avionics, IFR capable, among other things. The engine is nearing overhaul with a TTSN of 1875. I reviewed the logs and it looks like it has been flown regularly about 50-100 hours/year since the new engine was installed in 1996. It had good compressions every year up until the 2020 annual. After, it had all piston rings, intake manifold seals, and exhaust gaskets replaced and compressions were strong in the August 2021 annual.

I have offered full price as there has also been other interest in the airplane. However, as a part of due diligence, I would just like to make sure that the price I'd be paying is fair. What do you guys think? I will be putting the airplane through a thorough prebuy inspection including cylinder borescope.

Thanks!

Before you do another thing, get a firm insurance quote with full coverage and zero retractable time. Then, even if you can afford the premium and the airplane, listen to what the insurance company is saying: “The odds are you will have an expensive claim without more patience and experience.”

I don't disagree with you wanting to buy an airplane. Thirty-six years ago next month I bought my first airplane as a student pilot to finish up my private - a 4 year old Cessna 172. I flew it 500 hours and built up some experience. I made money on the airplane when I sold it and moved into something faster. By that time my insurance company had confidence in me.

[OR75]

1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

It’s the oil pressure gauge which is labelled inoperable not the fuel pressure gauge and there is an engine monitor on the right side. It appears to be an earlier Insight GEM.

Observe, examine and read before typing!

Clarence

I believe that’s GEM EGT/CHT only monitor . Not sure if the GEM has the oil pressure and if it has , if it is primary. Not sure if oil pressure is an airworthiness item. 

[RoundTwo]

13 minutes ago, OR75 said:

I believe that’s GEM EGT/CHT only monitor . Not sure if the GEM has the oil pressure and if it has , if it is primary. Not sure if oil pressure is an airworthiness item. 

There is a new oil pressure gauge below the co-pilot yoke.

[Mufflerbearing]

So much good information here.  People do buy shine and that is what this owner has invested into this plane.  It sure is pretty, but after spending 100k on a new dash to make IFR a more pleasurable experience and potentially safer, then what do you have?  A super expensive pretty plane. 

 

I would find a great example where someone else has put in an incredible dash and spend the 20k for a new paint job and have an incredible plane.

[RoundTwo]

27 minutes ago, Mufflerbearing said:

So much good information here.  People do buy shine and that is what this owner has invested into this plane.  It sure is pretty, but after spending 100k on a new dash to make IFR a more pleasurable experience and potentially safer, then what do you have?  A super expensive pretty plane. 

 

I would find a great example where someone else has put in an incredible dash and spend the 20k for a new paint job and have an incredible plane.

Of course, to go with that shiny paint, it needs a $20k Aero Comfort interior too. 

[Ethan]

Nate,

Good to hear you are stoked to fly. I would wait on buying an airplane. Get your instrument rating, your complex/HP endorsement, any other rating you want and just fly. You should fly a Mooney and a bunch of other airplanes, you never know, you might like something else better. The rule that has worked for me in life is: "there will always be something better, for cheaper . . . later" - especially now with this freaky pandemic inflation. The airplane market is nuts! Just fly, fly, fly and fly some more.

As soon as you buy an airplane you will be stuck with it and may start shopping for another because, well, there is always something better out there: a six-seater, a pressurized single, a twin, blah, blah blah.

Take care and enjoy your new lifetime hobby. I have a Mooney M20K (231) and I have had it for 8 years. I bought it when I was 42 years old. I love it but other airplanes are nice too.

 

Ethan

 

 

[Hank]

Ignore the naysayers, @Nate G. Sure, insurance will be high your first year, but fly the Mooney at least 100 hours and it should come down. @Parker_Woodruff can give some insurance insight. 

I'm one of many people here who bought a Mooney early, in my case 5 weeks and 10 hours after my PPL checkride; by that time, I had a whopping 62 hours in two different Cessna 172s. It has been done many times before, it can be done again. 

Then again, I also think the price on this F is rather high. But right now, so is everything else. But be prepared for engine work at any time, which is true regardless of which used airplane you buy. If you don't need any, it's a bonus!

Good luck with everything, and fly safe!

[MikeOH]

I bought my F with a past TBO engine, a few hundred hours later and it's still going strong, but...I paid a RUNOUT price.

This engine is quite close to TBO, but the price is NOT reflective of that fact.  Your $105K plane could quickly become $135K

I wouldn't rush the purchase of a plane.

[icurnmedic]

I have an F, similar equipped with much better engine times when purchased. I paid $70k, and felt that was a little high at the time, 2 years ago. But the plane was local and my Mooney mechanic said it was top shape. Get an F ,but don’t pay J money!

[Mooney Dog]

10 hours ago, Nate G said:

a student pilot going for my private about 26 hours in

buy a 150, 172, or a p28a if you have to do training in your own airplane. Otherwise finish up with your ppl first. It will be a lot simpler than buying a complex plane to train in that goes a bit faster than what you're used too. That said, I personally think that plane you listed is overpriced, though without going back into research the market i couldnt tell you by how much overpriced.  

 

What exactly is your "mission" with the plane? You could go down to an E model, or up to a J for a bit less/more money if you're only looking for speed. I personally love my E for a friend and I easy trips around Texas. 4 hours to cross the entire state is great! And i dont have any speed mods on my E. 

[ArtVandelay]

It is and always will be a modified F and not a J, though.  Some things, like v speeds, can never be modified in.  

And some things can but usually aren’t, like improved engine intake that makes ram air superfluous on Js and was eventually removed in later years. And then there’s the infamous gear actuators, 78 and later Js are still supported.

[KB4]

19 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

the GNS480 is no longer supported by Garmin, so repairs may not be possible moving forwards.

This is a good thing.  Chris Short from https://www.palmdr.com can fix the 480 and repair prices average 150-300.