Mooney M20E or C emergency procedures do any actually exist?

[Pilot boy]

I contacted Mooney with my serial number and they sent me a digitized PDF of the POH and a procedures pamphlet but it was limited to say the least.  Coming up on commercial check ride and am wondering if there is a source out there for emergency descent checklists, engine fires, etc.  something I can point the DPE to showing I did some homework and have a checklist better than close cabin vents.  I’ve seen some posts on this in the forums but it much real info.  Any ideas?  I have yet to contact MAPA.

[Hank]

Neither page in the Emergency section of my Owners Manual has any checklists (other than to close the vent in case of engine fire). There is a good discussion of the alternator, though.

Emergency descents are quite brisk:  maintain cruise speed, bank 45° and fall right out of the sky. You can always blow out the engine fire by descending straight ahead well up into the yellow, level off and bleed airspeed, then bank over 45° and ride the elevator. 

[carusoam]

What happens if you write your own procedures based on a similar, but more modern Mooney…

Some procedures from a J POH will make sense when adapted to a C plane…

Is home grown procedures better than no procedures, or terse faulty procedures…?

Best regards,

-a-

[Yetti]

The less there is the less to test on.

[Rjfanjet]

I have a check mate checklist. Everything is on there.

[1964-M20E]

Most emergency procedures for our small planes are quite similar.  Change the names to protect the innocent, and use one from another plane thinking about how you want to handle an emergency.

 

 

[Pilot boy]

On 7/20/2021 at 9:48 PM, Hank said:

Neither page in the Emergency section of my Owners Manual has any checklists (other than to close the vent in case of engine fire). There is a good discussion of the alternator, though.

Emergency descents are quite brisk:  maintain cruise speed, bank 45° and fall right out of the sky. You can always blow out the engine fire by descending straight ahead well up into the yellow, level off and bleed airspeed, then bank over 45° and ride the elevator. 

Where did you locate thus emergency descent info?  Is it in the 70s C POH? My E POH from 1966 has no procedure for it.

[Hank]

It's in my 1970 Owners Manual, posted in the Download section. Here is all of it except the blank "Log of Revisions" page.

[Rjfanjet]

[Hank]

Wow, @Rjfanjet! Engine out on takeoff, fly 98 mph! Thatsa mighty fast, I fly final at 85 mph slowing to 70 if light or 75 mph when heavy.

Since our Owners Manuals are all written in MPH, why are all speeds listed in KIAS first? The joys of aftermarket products.

But there's certainly much more information than in The Book. This is certainly good material to base an update to my own checklist upon.

[Rjfanjet]

Yeah, I fly your speeds on final. I also have the J bar.

Edited July 24, 2021 by Rjfanjet
Text

[ArtVandelay]

The Js best glide speed is 98mph at 2300 lbs and 105mph at 2700lbs.

[Hank]

3 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

The Js best glide speed is 98mph at 2300 lbs and 105mph at 2700lbs.

That may be, but the OP asked about C and E models, which are likely similar but slightly different.

[Ragsf15e]

On 7/20/2021 at 6:29 PM, Pilot boy said:

I contacted Mooney with my serial number and they sent me a digitized PDF of the POH and a procedures pamphlet but it was limited to say the least.  Coming up on commercial check ride and am wondering if there is a source out there for emergency descent checklists, engine fires, etc.  something I can point the DPE to showing I did some homework and have a checklist better than close cabin vents.  I’ve seen some posts on this in the forums but it much real info.  Any ideas?  I have yet to contact MAPA.

Ask Mooney or look in our downloads for the newest E model checklist.  1970?  And then use that exactly as written.  Ensure the DPE knows that you have the newest EPs for the airframe, he also knows that the year doesn’t match, and you tell him why you chose to use those EP checklists.  Inventing your own causes problems on a checkride.

[Yetti]

20 hours ago, Rjfanjet said:

The first one is wrong.  And trust me you don't have time to reach for a card.  You need to know how to fly the plane and you need to practice this up high.  Configure for takeoff.   Have power pulled.  your first instinct should be to push down on the yoke and know what 100mph feels like....   Practice this till this is instinct.   You won't have time for a restart.   Just start focusing on where to put it down and do a good landing.

 

[Rjfanjet]

Yeah, when I was a CFI 25 years ago, I always simulated an engine failure right after finishing a ground reference maneuver. No time for the checklist. 

[Pilot boy]

On 7/23/2021 at 6:53 PM, Rjfanjet said:

Thank you I ordered a set of these.

[Pilot boy]

On 7/24/2021 at 3:16 PM, Yetti said:

The first one is wrong.  And trust me you don't have time to reach for a card.  You need to know how to fly the plane and you need to practice this up high.  Configure for takeoff.   Have power pulled.  your first instinct should be to push down on the yoke and know what 100mph feels like....   Practice this till this is instinct.   You won't have time for a restart.   Just start focusing on where to put it down and do a good landing.

 

Yeah we practice this all the time for the spiral 360.....but I also want checklists.  Of course we do the ABCDEs by memory...

[Pilot boy]

On 7/22/2021 at 12:55 PM, Hank said:

It's in my 1970 Owners Manual, posted in the Download section. Here is all of it except the blank "Log of Revisions" page.

I actually have the same in my E manual but looking for more info aside from closing the cabin vents in case of engine fire.

[Pilot boy]

On 7/24/2021 at 3:16 PM, Yetti said:

The first one is wrong.  And trust me you don't have time to reach for a card.  You need to know how to fly the plane and you need to practice this up high.  Configure for takeoff.   Have power pulled.  your first instinct should be to push down on the yoke and know what 100mph feels like....   Practice this till this is instinct.   You won't have time for a restart.   Just start focusing on where to put it down and do a good landing.

 

I’ve been practicing to commercial ACS standards for months now....I can definitely fly a spiral 360 at best glide doing the checklist from memory.  I’ve probably logged 400 landings in the last 6 months with power off 180s and short/soft field etc.  I can fly the plane fine but the DPEs sometimes want to see checklist usage.

[Pilot boy]

On 7/24/2021 at 3:16 PM, Yetti said:

The first one is wrong.  And trust me you don't have time to reach for a card.  You need to know how to fly the plane and you need to practice this up high.  Configure for takeoff.   Have power pulled.  your first instinct should be to push down on the yoke and know what 100mph feels like....   Practice this till this is instinct.   You won't have time for a restart.   Just start focusing on where to put it down and do a good landing.

 

Why do  you think it’s wrong?  

[Mooney Dog]

1 hour ago, Pilot boy said:

Why do  you think it’s wrong?  

I believe he's referring to the speed. From the POH of an E model, it says for best glide, 105MPH for a windmilling prop, or 100 if the prop stopped. 

[ShuRugal]

I believe he's referring to the speed. From the POH of an E model, it says for best glide, 105MPH for a windmilling prop, or 100 if the prop stopped. 

In the event of power failure after takeoff, do you want best range or minimum sink?

While the airspeed for minimum-sink is not published anywhere I can find it, my own experimenting tells me that 85 mph is probably close to being the correct number, especially with flaps extended.

Flaps and gear up at 105, sink rate is ~800 fpm (over 1200 in a 30-degree turn). At 80 mph with approach/takeoff flaps, I see way less, more like 400 ft/min.



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[Ragsf15e]

Honestly, best glide speed is for going somewhere which isn’t really applicable here.  Min sink isn’t really that helpful unless we want to go down slowly.  For an engine failure immediately after takeoff, neither of these is helpful (unless you need max range to get to a safe place, then you may need best glide).  If the engine fails immediately after takeoff, push forward and attain something like normal final airspeed at least.  Faster is fine, slower not so much.  Fly the airplane to your chosen landing spot in front of you.  Use full flaps if possible and gear down if desired. 
 

By having at least final approach airspeed you will have enough energy to level off, flare, and attain the lowest possible airspeed before touching down.  Energy in the landing/crash is directly related to airspeed squared, so the actual landing/impact needs to be very slow (but not stalled).  In order to do that, you’ll need enough speed on final to level off and flare.

Youre not trying to go somewhere because you’re already committed to landing straight ahead or close enough to that, so best glide isn’t really gonna help.  Nothing wrong with going that fast, you won’t stall, but it’s not necessary.  If you get slow, say gliding down right above stall speed, you’ll have no energy left to level off and flare before impact which leaves more energy.  By leveling off in ground effect (which reduces drag), you’ll achieve the lowest possible landing speed.

[Mooney Dog]

3 hours ago, ShuRugal said:

In the event of power failure after takeoff, do you want best range or minimum sink?

While the airspeed for minimum-sink is not published anywhere I can find it, my own experimenting tells me that 85 mph is probably close to being the correct number, especially with flaps extended.

Flaps and gear up at 105, sink rate is ~800 fpm (over 1200 in a 30-degree turn). At 80 mph with approach/takeoff flaps, I see way less, more like 400 ft/min.



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The real answer is you push the nose over and fly the airplane. The fly the airplane part depends on any number of situations. Have i gotten the gear up yet? are the flaps out? How high did i get? Am i taking off from the NASA shuttle facility and have 3 more miles of runway to put the plane down on? etc... There is also normally a published Vg speed, and i dont think ive ever seen a minimum sink speed published. 

The key is to really dont stall the aircraft so you have a chance at landing and walking away. My self and student brief is normally the following as well. Abnormality on the runway? Pull power and bring it to a stop. Engine failure on takeoff? nose forward, best glide, left or right max 30 degrees. Reach 1000 feet. You can attempt to return to the field.