Interested in purchasing a J model, have some questions

[Ryan ORL]

Hi all,

I'm sure these types of questions get asked often, so I apologize in advance.  I'm a newbie to the Mooney community here, but I've been interested in purchasing one for quite some time.  I've finally gotten to the point where I am seriously considering doing it in the next month or so.

After doing a bit of searching to see what's on the market and thinking about my price range, I think I have decided a J model is right for me.  I had also considered an F model, but the (admittedly small) speed advantage of the J model is appealing, plus the J models that are available seem to be better equipped and less of a 'project'.   (I am hoping to buy something with the equipment I want rather than doing a whole avionics overhaul right off the bat.)

My 'mission' is basically IFR cross-country flying with my wife, which would seem to make really any of the M20 models pretty ideal for us.  We live in Florida, so there isn't often a need for very high-altitude flying (and therefore, I am not looking at any of the turbo-equipped models).  I also can more easily stomach the cost of an unexpected overhaul of the non-turbocharged engines.  My budget is ideally $110,000-$120,000.  Based on my preliminary research, it seems like that budget should be enough to find a reasonable example of a J model.  (Does that seem realistic?)

My personal experience level is moderate... I am a 600 hour part-time CFI/CFII, but virtually all of my time is in 172s/PA-28s.  My only actual hands-on experience so far with a Mooney is 10 hours or so I had in an M20F model a couple years ago, but I came away very impressed.  I expect the J model would fly fairly similarly, is that about right?

The most 'intimidating' thing for me about shopping for a Mooney so far is the huge variety of STCs that sellers advertise.  It seems like virtually every aircraft I look at has at least 2 or 3 STC'd modifications.

I guess my questions for this community would be... if you were shopping for a J model in my price range, what are the big desirable things to look for as far as STCs?  What are some early model-specific red flags I should watch out for (or ask sellers about) before I get deep into the process (pre-buy inspection, etc)?  Do you guys think my price range is realistic?  Does the year matter, or were the J models fairly consistent throughout the run?

Also, can you guys recommend any pre-buy services or brokers that specialize in Mooneys?  I have looked at SavvyPrebuy but have heard mixed reviews.

Thank you from a hopefully-soon-to-be Mooney owner

[EricJ]

You should be able to find a very nice J model for that budget.

Basic airframe STCs are pretty optional, many are flying around stock without any trouble.   Mine is pretty much bone stock as far as the basic airframe is concerned and I don't think it really needs anything.   Usually STCs are spent on avionics, etc., maybe a propeller.    Other basic mods can be done via Mooney SB or part kit, like deleting the ram air intake.

There were some changes over time but none have much to do with the airplane performance.   e.g., the 77 had a vastly superior (because it's in mine) throttle quadrant, while after that they had push-pull engine controls.    The location of the cabin vent intake changed along the way, they grew an inside hatch release later, the way the emergency gear extension works changed, etc.   Lots of other little things, like wingtips, etc.   In some case the changes made it better and in some the older way may be preferable.    I think this boils down to if you find one you like, that'll probably matter more than the serial number.

One kind-of desirable mod is the Lasar nose gear truss, as it is a bit more robust and less susceptible to ramp damage, but it's not a huge deal, either, if the airplane is in good shape.   It's easy to inspect for the relevant damage.

 

 

Edited November 27, 2020 by EricJ

[bmcconnaha]

That was my price point as well. I looked for the cleanest, lowest time j I could find. I purchased an 1875TT engine and airframe 1990 m20j. I was after the rounded windows (personal preference). I had zero issue buying a high time engine, because replacing it will give me confidence in what I have. I’m into the plane just over 100k, but I’m suspecting when it’s done it will be double that plus some, but it should be as close to new as i can get without it being new. Just put an IFD550 in the panel and ordered an IO390 (one of those STCs you’re asking about, LOL) and a hartzell top prop.


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[larrynimmo]

Regardless of what you look at...you need to survey for corrosion..that can sour any deal

[Missile=Awesome]

For that money buy a Missile.  You get Great useful load and 300HP that will cruise and climb faster than a 200HPJ...A J with more.  THAT is a Missile.  

P.S.  A throttle quadrant is NOT a plus to many.  To many it is a-

Good luck in your search.

[Hank]

11 minutes ago, Missile=Awesome said:

For that money buy a Missile.  You get Great useful load and 300HP that will cruise and climb faster than a 200HPJ...A J with more.  THAT is a Missile.  

P.S.  A throttle quadrant is NOT a plus to many.  To many it is a-

Good luck in your search.

A Missile would be nice. A Missile with a throttle quadrant would be excellent!!

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard Ryan!

You have done your research....

You have heard the good news...

Fs and Js are the same plane that got better with every shade of gray since the first to the last one built in the 90s...

The J was all about aerodynamics... starting with fancy fiberglass cowls... later the fancy fiberglass moved out to the wing tips... and covered gaps and fairings everywhere...

Aerodynamics is what Mooney is known for... that is the efficiency that allows for speed...

But... if you are driven by speed... nothing cooler than 300 horses neatly packed into a 200hp airframe... 

If you like a few more ponies... 25° timing may be of interest to you... of course there are the guys that prefer the 10:1 compression ratio pistons in their steeds.... thermodynamic efficiency can be an equally wonderful thing!

Go M20F, M20J, and Missile!

Best regards,

-a-

[ZuluZulu]

4 hours ago, Ryan ORL said:

Hi all,

I'm sure these types of questions get asked often, so I apologize in advance.  I'm a newbie to the Mooney community here, but I've been interested in purchasing one for quite some time.  I've finally gotten to the point where I am seriously considering doing it in the next month or so.

After doing a bit of searching to see what's on the market and thinking about my price range, I think I have decided a J model is right for me.  I had also considered an F model, but the (admittedly small) speed advantage of the J model is appealing, plus the J models that are available seem to be better equipped and less of a 'project'.   (I am hoping to buy something with the equipment I want rather than doing a whole avionics overhaul right off the bat.)

My 'mission' is basically IFR cross-country flying with my wife, which would seem to make really any of the M20 models pretty ideal for us.  We live in Florida, so there isn't often a need for very high-altitude flying (and therefore, I am not looking at any of the turbo-equipped models).  I also can more easily stomach the cost of an unexpected overhaul of the non-turbocharged engines.  My budget is ideally $110,000-$120,000.  Based on my preliminary research, it seems like that budget should be enough to find a reasonable example of a J model.  (Does that seem realistic?)

My personal experience level is moderate... I am a 600 hour part-time CFI/CFII, but virtually all of my time is in 172s/PA-28s.  My only actual hands-on experience so far with a Mooney is 10 hours or so I had in an M20F model a couple years ago, but I came away very impressed.  I expect the J model would fly fairly similarly, is that about right?

The most 'intimidating' thing for me about shopping for a Mooney so far is the huge variety of STCs that sellers advertise.  It seems like virtually every aircraft I look at has at least 2 or 3 STC'd modifications.

I guess my questions for this community would be... if you were shopping for a J model in my price range, what are the big desirable things to look for as far as STCs?  What are some early model-specific red flags I should watch out for (or ask sellers about) before I get deep into the process (pre-buy inspection, etc)?  Do you guys think my price range is realistic?  Does the year matter, or were the J models fairly consistent throughout the run?

Also, can you guys recommend any pre-buy services or brokers that specialize in Mooneys?  I have looked at SavvyPrebuy but have heard mixed reviews.

Thank you from a hopefully-soon-to-be Mooney owner

What do you mean by STCs?  Avionics upgrades and engine/prop swaps are obvious but it seems you mean airframe mods.  Most Mooney airframe mods are retrofitting the J's refinements to earlier models, not modifying the J itself.  I can't think of any relevant airframe STCs (which as @EricJ mentioned may not even necessarily require an STC) in my three years of scouring the market other than: the single-piece belly mod for earlier J's, the LoPresti cowl (very rare), quick-drain oil, wingtip fairings (also for early J's, and which are good for looks only, not speed), engine/oil pre-heater systems, Rosen visors, and the ram air delete mod since ram air doesn't really do anything for a J.

What am I missing, fellow members of the Mooneyhive?

[carusoam]

Zulu,

Did you have the round corner windows on your list?

Somebody may want to have the real ones, not the vinyl or painted ones... 

-a-

[ZuluZulu]

Just now, carusoam said:

Zulu,

Did you have the round corner windows on your list?

Somebody may want to have the real ones, not the vinyl or painted ones... 

-a-

That's true.  I didn't think of it because I was always looking for an '89 or newer that had them.    Still though, it's another cosmetics-only mod.

[bmcconnaha]

That's true.  I didn't think of it because I was always looking for an '89 or newer that had them.    Still though, it's another cosmetics-only mod.

I thought the round windows were 5kts faster. Minimum.

 

 

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[ZuluZulu]

I missed some obvious ones: Monroy long-range tanks (which I have), O&N bladders, and speed brakes (which I also have).

[gsxrpilot]

I like the round windows as well but I would try to find any J from '83 forward. Those have the wingtips AND the removable rear bucket seats.

[bmcconnaha]

I missed some obvious ones: Monroy long-range tanks (which I have), O&N bladders, and speed brakes (which I also have).

I wish I had speed brakes, honestly. Not because the speeds are tough to manage, just another tool in the box and when it’s bumpy having the ability to descend slower.


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[PT20J]

Maybe this will help

201hist.xls

[mooneyflyfast]

A J model Mooney does not need any STCs.  Monroy?  I have 7 hours range in my stock J.  How far are you going?  Bladders?  Less useful load, less fuel capacity.  They are not cheap or maintenance free either.  Just get a good one equipped pretty much like you want it and take good care of it and you will love it.  I still do after 22 years and 2,300 hours.

[carusoam]

Does 22 years qualify for forever-plane status?
 

Just wondering...   

-a-

[ArtVandelay]

What do you mean by STCs?  Avionics upgrades and engine/prop swaps are obvious but it seems you mean airframe mods.  Most Mooney airframe mods are retrofitting the J's refinements to earlier models, not modifying the J itself.  I can't think of any relevant airframe STCs (which as [mention=15539]EricJ[/mention] mentioned may not even necessarily require an STC) in my three years of scouring the market other than: the single-piece belly mod for earlier J's, the LoPresti cowl (very rare), quick-drain oil, wingtip fairings (also for early J's, and which are good for looks only, not speed), engine/oil pre-heater systems, Rosen visors, and the ram air delete mod since ram air doesn't really do anything for a J.
What am I missing, fellow members of the Mooneyhive?

Gap seals, wing root faring, external antennas (vor, marker beacon, elt) replaced with internal antennas, gap seals, hinge covers, long range tanks, wing landing lights.....

[ArtVandelay]

A Missile would be nice. A Missile with a throttle quadrant would be excellent!!

Cons:
Quadrant takes up room.
Missile engine requires more maintenance and fuel.

Does the Garmin GFC 500 require special approval or do they fall under the J umbrella?

Over a long term ownership, the price of the plane is dwarfed by annual costs (fuel, insurance, hangar, maintenance). Because you will get your money back when you sell it, the annual costs you don’t.

[M20F]

Throttle quadrants are for Pipers.  

[wcb]

@Ryan ORL

Here is a thought with that budget.  My 76 F add the GFC 500 and you will have a great plane and be well under budget.

 

 

[Hank]

1 hour ago, M20F said:

Throttle quadrants are for Pipers.  

Tell that to Boeing . . . .

[N201MKTurbo]

I owned an F with push pull controls for 19 years. I’ve owned a J with a quadrant for 17 years.

I prefer the push pull controls.

FWIW flying a twin with push pull controls would be very weird.

[ArtVandelay]

Tell that to Boeing . . . .

The difference is Boeing cockpits are bigger and entered from the rear, Mooney is from the right side, which means you have to squeeze past the quadrant. Making a small cockpit feel even smaller.

[Ryan ORL]

12 hours ago, ZuluZulu said:

What do you mean by STCs?  Avionics upgrades and engine/prop swaps are obvious but it seems you mean airframe mods.  Most Mooney airframe mods are retrofitting the J's refinements to earlier models, not modifying the J itself.  I can't think of any relevant airframe STCs (which as @EricJ mentioned may not even necessarily require an STC) in my three years of scouring the market other than: the single-piece belly mod for earlier J's, the LoPresti cowl (very rare), quick-drain oil, wingtip fairings (also for early J's, and which are good for looks only, not speed), engine/oil pre-heater systems, Rosen visors, and the ram air delete mod since ram air doesn't really do anything for a J.

What am I missing, fellow members of the Mooneyhive?

When browsing listings I have seen a wide variety of things listed as STCs including:

- GAMI Injectors

- Something with the Air Filter?

- Fuel Tank Sealing / Other Mods

- Air / Oil Separator

I'm sure most of these things are minor, but for instance, the fuel tank stuff I have seen on several listings.