Backup Electric Attitude Indicator

[Seth]

What is out there in the market these days for backup attitude indicators that are electric?

I'm thinking of replacing my KI256 with a Garmin GI275. BUT . . . keeping the HSI525A until it has an issue or until i upgrade to a G3X or 500Txi and then my GI275 will be the backup.

In the meantime, when I replace the KI256 I'll need a backup AI. So it can be a GI275 OR I replace the turn and bank coordinator or VSI with a backup AI for a lot less than a reversionary GI275.

I plan to remove my vacuum system and standby vac as well.

1. What's out there new and used

2, What do you suggest.

Thanks!

-Seth.

[aviatoreb]

15 minutes ago, Seth said:

What is out there in the market these days for backup attitude indicators that are electric?

I'm thinking of replacing my KI256 with a Garmin GI275. BUT . . . keeping the HSI525A until it has an issue or until i upgrade to a G3X or 500Txi and then my GI275 will be the backup.

In the meantime, when I replace the KI256 I'll need a backup AI. So it can be a GI275 OR I replace the turn and bank coordinator or VSI with a backup AI for a lot less than a reversionary GI275.

I plan to remove my vacuum system and standby vac as well.

1. What's out there new and used

2, What do you suggest.

Thanks!

-Seth.

A G5 is a reasonable attitude indicator as a stand alone not too expensive backup.

[Ragsf15e]

19 minutes ago, Seth said:

What is out there in the market these days for backup attitude indicators that are electric?

I'm thinking of replacing my KI256 with a Garmin GI275. BUT . . . keeping the HSI525A until it has an issue or until i upgrade to a G3X or 500Txi and then my GI275 will be the backup.

In the meantime, when I replace the KI256 I'll need a backup AI. So it can be a GI275 OR I replace the turn and bank coordinator or VSI with a backup AI for a lot less than a reversionary GI275.

I plan to remove my vacuum system and standby vac as well.

1. What's out there new and used

2, What do you suggest.

Thanks!

-Seth.

Why do you need a backup with your new -275?  Your current ADI doesn’t have one.  You’d be no worse off if the -275 fails, partial panel on the TC. You could still remove primary and secondary vac.

If it’s short term awaiting a G3X or G500, I think 1 gi-275 is fine.  If it’s years away, I’d do both ADI and HSI so you have a built in backup.

Anyway, I think that’s legal and just an option for you.

[MIm20c]

I have a nice condition lifesaver w/o backup battery that was recently removed.  Most are pretty durable with a 7k ish mtbf.  I’d probably recommend going with two 275’s if you want to spend more. 

[Jerry 5TJ]

1 hour ago, Seth said:

2, What do you suggest.

Something solid state and not any sort of spinning gyro.

I've seen used RCA 2600-3 units offered for about an AMU.

 

[Skates97]

I'm pulling my TB and putting in a RCA 2610-3. They now have it with the slip indicator and turn rate indicator as part of the unit and not a little piece attached to the front. It can also be ordered with a battery backup.

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/rca2610.php?clickkey=4417146

[Schinderhannes]

If the GI275 doesn't require a certified backup I would look into the Uavionics AV20.

 

https://uavionix.com/products/av-20s/

 

[NJMac]

I got a Dynon D3 portable. Came with a mount for a 3in hole that I intend to use full time with a power supply from a spare port in my panel. If it's just backup, I'd say this will do nicely, probably at the lowest price point

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[Seth]

5 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Why do you need a backup with your new -275?  Your current ADI doesn’t have one.  You’d be no worse off if the -275 fails, partial panel on the TC. You could still remove primary and secondary vac.

If it’s short term awaiting a G3X or G500, I think 1 gi-275 is fine.  If it’s years away, I’d do both ADI and HSI so you have a built in backup.

Anyway, I think that’s legal and just an option for you.

For some reason I didn’t think that was legal. I though glass had to have a backup. I could be wrong. And I do have a kid of backup with a stratus and my IPad, and also my Aera and the GTX345 but both solutions leave a lot to be desired. The AHRS in the GTX345 is substandard in my opinion.

But a dynon D3 could be a nice backup if no certified backup is required by the GI275.

Heck, that changes everything.

-Seth 

[Bob - S50]

30 minutes ago, Seth said:

For some reason I didn’t think that was legal. I though glass had to have a backup. I could be wrong. And I do have a kid of backup with a stratus and my IPad, and also my Aera and the GTX345 but both solutions leave a lot to be desired. The AHRS in the GTX345 is substandard in my opinion.

But a dynon D3 could be a nice backup if no certified backup is required by the GI275.

Heck, that changes everything.

-Seth 

AC91-75 let's you do one of two things:

Keep your AI and replace your TC with and AI as long as they have separate power sources.  The FAA considers a backup battery that is part of the unit (G5 or GI275) to be a separate source.

Or keep your TC and replace your vacuum powered AI with a battery backed up electric AI.

Garmin apparently has an STC for their GI275 that's allows it to replace the entire 6 pack, including the TC if you have a dual GI275 with one set to back up the other.

[LANCECASPER]

4 hours ago, Schinderhannes said:

If the GI275 doesn't require a certified backup I would look into the Uavionics AV20.

 

https://uavionix.com/products/av-20s/

 

The AV-20 is a nice clock, but not a proper backup. The AV-20S is certified.

[carusoam]

Summary...

1) Back-up device... not a panel OH...

2) Garmin has two devices G5, GI275 one may even work with your AP....

3) Dynon D3...

4) Old Aspens have hit the market lately...

5) RCA digital devices 2600 series...

6) Life saver battery powered Dino Gyro.... 
 

Things that won’t work for Seth...

7) Anything Uavionics... unless, just used as a tie breaker... (not ready for prime time)

8) Anything that requires assembly before use... or can become un-assembled during descent in the bumps...

 

Friends don’t let friends fly in IMC with improper equipment...  

FOMAF... Fear of missing a friend...

PP Summary only, stuff I read in this thread...

Best regards,

-a-

[takair]

6 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Summary...

1) Back-up device... not a panel OH...

2) Garmin has two devices G5, GI275 one may even work with your AP....

3) Dynon D3, a D4 May be arriving soon...(?)

4) Old Aspens have hit the market lately...

5) RCA digital devices 2600 series...

6) Life saver battery powered Dino Gyro.... 
 

Things that won’t work for Seth...

7) Anything Uavionics... unless, just used as a tie breaker... (not ready for prime time)

8) Anything that requires assembly before use... or can become un-assembled during descent in the bumps...

 

Friends don’t let friends fly in IMC with improper equipment...  

FOMAF... Fear of missing a friend...

PP Summary only, stuff I read in this thread...

Best regards,

-a-

Anthony....are you holding out on us?  Do you have insider info on a Dynon D4?

[carusoam]

Just now, takair said:

Anthony....are you holding out on us?  Do you have insider info on a Dynon D4?

I must have fell asleep at the switch... 

The D3 IS the new one...

Watch how quick I can edit my posts....

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

Important thing to put into the decision matrix...

Are you a fan of Big G, or are you avoiding Big G?

Dynon big screen panels have shown up in at least four MSer planes... the Dynon AP has not made it to Mooney yet...
 

Garmin G500txi seems to be the big screen of choice, when spending on a forever-plane... Big APs are becoming more popular...

To comfortably mix and match avionics... it helps to be an electrical engineer... or work in that Industry...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[takair]

32 minutes ago, carusoam said:

I must have fell asleep at the switch... 

The D3 IS the new one...

Watch how quick I can edit my posts....

Best regards,

-a-

I was really hoping for a slightly smaller version to fit in my open slot....

[CharlesHuddleston]

1 hour ago, LANCECASPER said:

The AV-20 is a nice clock, but not a proper backup. The AV-20S is certified.

It is FAA certified, but only via the NORSEE regs, not as a TSO-certified backup AI. If you are looking for a certified backup AI, you will have to go G5, GI 275, RCA series, or one of the gyro-vacuum system units. If, as the OP stated, his goal is to eventually remove the vacuum system, AND is using the KI 256 to drive a King autopilot, then that is a whole different rabbit trail to follow... Trust me, I just learned these lessons the expensive way! BUT, I am super-happy with the results I got for the money I spent. 

 

BTW, I'm not specific to any brand, as I now have Aspens, a G5, AND the AV-20S...

[gacoon]

8 hours ago, Skates97 said:

I'm pulling my TB and putting in a RCA 2610-3. They now have it with the slip indicator and turn rate indicator as part of the unit and not a little piece attached to the front. It can also be ordered with a battery backup.

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/rca2610.php?clickkey=4417146

+1, I did that in June during annual. It is now backup for my Aspen pfd1000.  Very easy install, just a power wire.  The 2610 works well.  Get the one mentioned above.  In my case I also pulled vac systems and backup vac system.  Nice useful load increase.

[JimB]

Sort of related question. I have dual G5s installed and electric TC. Can I install a GI-275 as my backup AI and use it primarily in the MFD mode with the G5s? In the event of a loss of my primary G5 AI will it automatically change from MFD to ADI? I'm asking because I like the idea of having a backup ADI rather than the TC and the GI-275 will actually have everything (AS, ALT,  traffic, map, weather, CDI, etc) available on it. And I can mount it right up front next to the G5. 

Sound ridiculous to use the GI-275 as a backup but I think it can serve that function whereas the G5 cannot. 

[aviatoreb]

5 minutes ago, JimB said:

Sound ridiculous to use the GI-275 as a backup but I think it can serve that function whereas the G5 cannot. 

Well if the eyeball pointing at police find that you are looking more frequently at the GI275 in actuality - you could end up in biiiiig trouble!

[JimB]

55 minutes ago, DXB said:

I recently installed a GI275 to backup to my Aspen Max PFD and get rid of my vac system.   The GI275's multiple non-pfd modes are spectacular, and it gets lots of use in the role of MFD.  In an emergency where I lose the Aspen, the GI275's PFD function is available with the twist of a knob.  If you don't already have a proper MFD, the GI275 is hard to pass up as the path for getting rid of the vac system.

That's interesting. Do you require a backup AI for the Aspen? If so, is the GI-275 your certified backup? I only ask because after posting this morning I was doing some additional research and it appears it can be backup for almost any system but it would have to remain in PFD/AI mode. You would lose the MFD functionality unless it is a back up for another GI-275 or the G500. 

Like you, I want to be able to use it as an MFD but have it as my backup AI and lose the TC. With dual G5s I already have a backup AI and don't really care about it but to be legal my second G5 cannot be considered a backup. But having that as a MFD to display weather, maps and traffic would be great. 

[jetdriven]

the GI275 can be used as an MFD if its backing up a G500Txi.  it communicates with it, and if it fails, it reverts to standby ADI.  the G500 has no HDSB, and thus, no communication with the GI275.

[jetdriven]

i think the reversionary switch is only allowed when you have more than one GI275

 

[Seth]

Thank you all.

1. I do indeed want to remove the KI256, vacuum system, and standby vacuum system. 

2. I'm not going to do the GI275 for a while unless its required by a major failure of the KI256A, KI525A, or Vacuum system. In the meantime, I would love an emergency backup Attitude indicator or better that is electric and not vacuum powered. The AV-20s seems interesting here, especially withe some of the other functions (like AOA which my aircraft does not have) and it is certified. Maybe just a D3 simply as a backup. I could easily install a used electric device to replace my T&B if it made sense. If anyone has any (I saw some above) PM me. 

3. If I only install 1 GI275 to replace the KI256 and keep my KI525A as my HSI for now (until a future glass upgrade), would the single GI275 have emulated GPSS steering? Or would I have to install a second GI275 for the HSI slot to get the GPSS steering - or any other GPSS device for that matter?

Thanks,

-Seth

[Gagarin]

A Turn Coordinator together with a VSI makes an excellent backup for an attitude indicator. By having a vacuum driven gyro you have two different sources of power for attitude indication, specially if you are hit by lightning in IFR conditions.