SR20

[Mooney217RN]

I was doing a bit of research on acquiring a new plane for our flight school.  I am an absentee owner, but I have been paying attention to the operation for some time and noticed a significant uptick in business this year.

Obviously one of our Mooney Magical Marvels wouldn't work in a flight school environment.  I looked at the pricing on the Cessna product line, and got sick.  A completely overpriced product.

So I contacted Cirrus.  Low & behold, their SR20's are now powered by Lycoming IO-390's.  A slight step up from the IO-360A3B6 I had in my former Mooney.  Then I looked at the ergonomics, avionics and the overall utility.  This plane is EXACTLY what Mooney ought to be doing.  

If you could buy a NEW Mooney 201 with modern avionics, sporty interior and have a generous tip to tail warranty, sans parachute, in the mid-$400K range, wouldn't you step right up???  This is why Cirrus is blowing the doors off the market.  The SR20 is back ordered until NEXT YEAR.

Now I wouldn't trade my Ovation 3 for a Cirrus of any variety.  But for goodness sake, Mooney is blowing it royally by failing to address the entry level buyer.

[Hank]

 

[Mooney217RN]

Hank, what's the price on the DA-50?

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

 

Well sure if price is no object, heck I'll take something turbine, a TBM940.  I haven't head the price of the DA50 yet but I am guessing they will come in North of $1M.

Edited July 1, 2020 by aviatoreb

[Mooney217RN]

5 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Well sure if price is no object, heck I'll take something turbine, a TBM940.  I haven't head the price of the DA50 yet but I am guessing they will come in North of $1M.

That's what I am talking about - at $450,000+, that SR20 looks damn good.

[rbridges]

Does the io390 still have the time limitation for the extra hp?

[Mooney217RN]

5 minutes ago, rbridges said:

Does the io390 still have the time limitation for the extra hp?

I haven't a clue.  As I recall it was 210HP.  My old IO-360 A3B6 did all of that and then some with a Power Flow Tuned Exhaust and a LoPresti SCRAM induction system.  I was getting approximately 220+HP out of it.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Mooney217RN said:

Hank, what's the price on the DA-50?

Oops! I pasted into the wrong thread . . . .  

Edited July 1, 2020 by Hank

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, Mooney217RN said:

That's what I am talking about - at $450,000+, that SR20 looks damn good.

I use an Sr-20 at a flight school and it’s pretty good.  Pretty dang similar performance to my F.  The AC is nice in the summer.  There’s a whole training flow, syllabus, signoffs, etc to use it though.  That’s not from our Flightschool, it’s standard Cirrus.  Are you a Cirrus training center?  What about Cirrus service center for warranty mx?

[the_elkhartian]

I work at a big ab initio flight school. We were looking for a replacement for our aging DA40 fleet. We have a customer whose govt aviation authority doesn’t allow training in Piper products (Japan).  

We kicked the tires on the Cirrus. Flew it. Then we talked to some peer flight schools (big university programs mostly) that had a Cirrus. The maintenance and upkeep data they shared was way worse than the DA40. And the diamond stuff is at least 30% more expensive to maintain than a Piper Archer III. 

So, we still have DA40s. And a whole lot of Archers (40). The 2019 Archer TX with an air conditioner and G1000NXI is probably the segment leader for training aircraft. We are taking delivery of 5 new Archers per month for the rest of the year. 

Maintenance example: We had a piece of fuselage get dented on a PA28. Some unknown object fell on it. The guys in our repair shop drilled the rivets out. Cut a new panel. Installed and riveted the new panel into place and spray painted it with rustoleum. Was fixed in 24 hours. 

We had a DA 40 get a crack in a non-structural section of the fuselage. It required engineering sign off from Austria and two months of parts on order including approved paint to finish the repaired fiberglass. Plastic airplanes are bad news, at least in a training/maintenance environment. 

On the other hand, Im familiar with an awesome Cirrus only flight school at SQL. They cater to the more money than time (and possibly sense) crowd who wants to learn to fly in the Bay Area. Very successful, they turn around and sell/leaseback planes from their HNW students. Works great for them, and they attract a certain clientele with all the vain gizmos and parachutes that come with a Cirrus.

Piper Archers aren’t sexy, but they’re workhorses. Inverse is true for Cirrus and Diamond. 

I also realize most flight schools don’t consistently put 7+ hours per day on their airplanes. So in a slower environment maybe the plastic holds up better. 

 

 

[carusoam]

Great insight WTW.

Thanks for sharing the details...

Best regards,

-a-

[The Other Red Baron]

5 minutes ago, wingtipwalker said:

We have a customer whose govt aviation authority doesn’t allow training in Piper products (Japan).  

Not to derail the thread but why does Japan not like Piper?

[irishpilot]

I think this is a good example of volume of sales. Aircraft companies that sell in volume are able to be cost-competitive.

Mooney sold 14 airplanes in 2018. Cirrus sold 380 that year.

https://www.av
web.com/insider/mooneys-last-act/

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[the_elkhartian]

1 hour ago, The Other Red Baron said:

Not to derail the thread but why does Japan not like Piper?

I’m not exactly sure. I only do FAA training. The JCAB is all sorts of crazy....you think we have it bad with our Feds....I think it has to do with glide ratio? Aviation lobbyists? Not sure. 
 

I do deal with the Indian DGCA...most Indian aviation regulations are in word documents. Not PDFs. Word documents. They will convert training in an Archer but not in a Seminole. So our Indian students do their single private and instrument in an Archer then MECPL in a DA42. 

[GeeBee]

Funny. IASCO trained JAL pilots for years in Arrows and Aztecs.

 

[N201MKTurbo]

The Phoenix area has to be the flight training capitol of the world. They are everywhere. Mostly flying Pipers.

 

Well, I found data from 2013 that showed that the Orlando FSDO processed slightly more written tests than Scottsdale. So, we are #2. But then a lot can change in 7 years.

 

[mike_elliott]

34 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

The Phoenix area has to be the flight training capitol of the world. They are everywhere. Mostly flying Pipers.

 

Well, I found data from 2013 that showed that the Orlando FSDO processed slightly more written tests than Scottsdale. So, we are #2. But then a lot can change in 7 years.

 

I have flown and trained in both, and while busy, Phoenix is a ghost town compared to Daytona area at times. Quite possibly because when I have been in Phoenix, it has not been the "ideal" training temp and when in the Orlando/Daytona area, you are air space constricted that all flight training activities are in a compacted area. The controllers at both are exceptional at understanding a less than perfect version of English. Getting over the top at Phoenix is the norm, that wont happen in Orlando. This isnt to "weenie wag" about who's airspace is worse, just a datapoint that wx, time of year, airspace, etc all play into who has the most training. 

[Seth]

The Cirrus is not $450,000. That's base with no options. Once you option it up it's going to go for closer to $550,000.

It's the wrong engine combination for the airframe. It doesn't climb as well in my opinion, as it should. That said, for a flight school, it's a much better looking aircraft than a C-172. It also does not glide as well. Again, it's a larger airframe. Clients will need to rent more to get comfortable as the side stick is not as intuitive as yoke. Also, the buttonology is very important in a Cirrus. This makes for more rental time before solo, more instruction time, so it's a win from management from that perspective. Also, it's simply a cooler airplane to fly than a Cessna.

I work as a Part 135 Charter Captain for Open Air: www.flyopenair.com. They also have a flight school with both SR22's and SR20's. The clientele is different than the 172 and PA28 flight schools at the two airfields they operate. I can put you in touch with the owners, who are VERY Cirrus biased, for operation talks, drawbacks, and positives. The maintenance cost is obscene in my opinion compared to a 172 or PA28. The warranty helps with that during the first 3-5 years of ownership if new.

The M10T and M10J would have been great for this market if it had come to fruition and didn't have the issues that appeared.

Take care,

-Seth

[N201MKTurbo]

2 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

I have flown and trained in both, and while busy, Phoenix is a ghost town compared to Daytona area at times. Quite possibly because when I have been in Phoenix, it has not been the "ideal" training temp and when in the Orlando/Daytona area, you are air space constricted that all flight training activities are in a compacted area. The controllers at both are exceptional at understanding a less than perfect version of English. Getting over the top at Phoenix is the norm, that wont happen in Orlando. This isnt to "weenie wag" about who's airspace is worse, just a datapoint that wx, time of year, airspace, etc all play into who has the most training. 

Flying in these traffic conditions changes your perspective. When I went on my long cross country last September, to New Hampshire, I thought my stratus and Avidyne traffic was broke. It is amazing how little traffic there is most places. 

[gsxrpilot]

I don't feel the need for Mooney to compete with Cirrus any more than I need Ferrari to compete with Toyota. Maybe I'd feel differently if I lived in Kerrville, TX.

[GeeBee]

The issue is once again, "the chute". I was talking to my hangar neighbor a well known to the area tort lawyer who just bought a new SR22. He said he had no choice in the matter. His life insurance would only allow a single engine airplane airplane with a BRS. Believe me, he drools over my Ovation but it is an impossible love affair. As you remember they would only insure Cory Lidel if he bought a Cirrus (not that it helped, you got to pull the handle). After the Thurmond Munson crash, insurance companies are really "hinky" about insuring high net worth people and. talent operating their own airplanes. Equally so you got a lot of businesses that have "key man" coverage that also places those restrictions.  Let's face it, anyone who lays out 700 to a million for a new airplane likely falls into these categories. 

 

[gsxrpilot]

Just now, GeeBee said:

Let's face it, anyone who lays out 700 to a million for a new airplane likely falls into these categories. 

First world problems.

[aviatoreb]

So I see on the web - wiki - don't laugh at me for my source.... so details may be wrong but rolling with it:

That an SR20 is $455k base for a new one. 2019 price with an IO360.

The SR22 is $630k base with SR22T $730k base.

If comparing current produced Mooneys to a Cirrus it would be big bore models - a Ovation (base $728k) to a SR22 and an Acclaim (base $808k) to an SR22T.

I don't know if it is apples to apples in terms of if you can or would likely walk out with the base model so if these are realistic comparisons.  And I am not meaning to compare quality, desirability, speed, or anything else.  Just the increment that Cirrus is charging for what is a very similar/same airframe but a larger engine.

So what else is different between a base SR20 and an SR22 that justifies the 175k price jump?  That is surely more than the cost of a larger engine and a larger prop?  Ok, does that SR22 base price already include TKS since I can't remember seeing a recent model SR22 without TKS.

Anyway the reason for this post - just going on that - could we imagine a M20 modern sporting a IO360 for essentially the current build cost of a Ovation minus 175.  So $728-175, $553k for a modern M20-IO360 which is essential a M20J.  Then perhaps strip it down a bit more, with simpler equipment and interior - I would love to see them build new with a GFC500 plus G3x instead of the GFC700 plus G1000 - could that bring the price under $500?  (Oh and surely you want to shorten the Ovation airframe to something...about the size of a mid size - the M20J - which of course they have all the plans, certification, and so forth to do).

Wait - a sec - forget Garmin - build new with the Dynon system for an even more reasonably priced and most excellent new aircraft.

Edited July 1, 2020 by aviatoreb

[NJMac]

His life insurance would only allow a single engine airplane airplane with a BRS. Believe me, he drools over my Ovation but it is an impossible love affair. As you remember they would only insure Cory Lidel if he bought a Cirrus (not that it helped, you got to pull the handle). After the Thurmond Munson crash, insurance companies are really "hinky" about insuring high net worth people and. talent operating their own airplanes.
 

Interesting point. I hadn't considered the chute more than an occasional use safety gimmick but can see why it's a must in some situations like this.

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[Parker_Woodruff]

21 hours ago, Mooney217RN said:

.  

If you could buy a NEW Mooney 201 with modern avionics, sporty interior and have a generous tip to tail warranty, sans parachute, in the mid-$400K range, wouldn't you step right up???  This is why Cirrus is blowing the doors off the market.  The SR20 is back ordered until NEXT YEAR.

Now I wouldn't trade my Ovation 3 for a Cirrus of any variety.  But for goodness sake, Mooney is blowing it royally by failing to address the entry level buyer.

If I ever buy a brand new airplane:

- Piper Seneca V

- Cirrus SR20

- Cirrus SR22.

You're exactly right. And unfortunately that SR20 price point was only $389,000 a couple years ago.