Efficiency!

[KLRDMD]

4 hours ago, Shadrach said:

As I said before - If you are considering a surefly, I would suggest you collect as much data as possible before installation of the new mag. Then compare post installation data with preinstsllation data. Any efficiency games will manifest as a reduction in FF for a given airspeed. It’s imprecise but it’s the best that can be done by an owner. 

I'm not. I'm asking what should an average guy flying his airplane do as far as determining where to properly operate the engine. 

[KLRDMD]

3 hours ago, Shadrach said:

The genesis of the discussion came from Ken’s assertion that an extra 13-18° Of advance made no difference on power when LOP peak. 

I never made such an ascertain. I simply provided data that an average pilot can use while flying his airplane, not theoretical issues that we can't control.

[Browncbr1]

Here’s my F running at peak with just me and 30lbs luggage at 50gallons  152ktas on 8.5gph, PEAK, 9000ft

the OP probably didn’t use calibrated airspeed

i cant wait to see if the surefly makes a good difference ..  it goes on in a couple weeks  

 

 

Edited June 30, 2020 by Browncbr1

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, KLRDMD said:

I'm not. I'm asking what should an average guy flying his airplane do as far as determining where to properly operate the engine. 

Technique would not change, fuel flows (and temps) for a given airspeed likely will. How substantially would be a guess.

Edited June 30, 2020 by Shadrach

[Shadrach]

4 hours ago, Browncbr1 said:

Here’s my F running at peak with just me and 30lbs luggage at 50gallons  152ktas on 8.5gph, PEAK, 9000ft

the OP probably didn’t use calibrated airspeed

i cant wait to see if the surefly makes a good difference ..  it goes on in a couple weeks  

 

 

Great! Please collect as much pre-installation data as you can so that the post installation benefits can be clearly identified.

Edited July 1, 2020 by Shadrach

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, KLRDMD said:

I never made such an ascertain. I simply provided data that an average pilot can use while flying his airplane, not theoretical issues that we can't control.

OK. I must have misunderstood your response to Jonathan.  His question centered around the very thing I'm talking about (he has SureFly installed).  I could have sworn you said the SureFly's ignition advance did not matter when LOP.

[ArtVandelay]

Here’s my F running at peak with just me and 30lbs luggage at 50gallons  152ktas on 8.5gph, PEAK, 9000ft

1. Your JPI has the wrong HP multiplier, you should be close to 60%, not 39%.

2. You’re in an updraft, the G5 attitude shows you in a descent, but altitude is steady, this is probably caused by the tailwinds going over the mountains just ahead of you.

[Browncbr1]

3 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

1. Your JPI has the wrong HP multiplier, you should be close to 60%, not 39%.

2. You’re in an updraft, the G5 attitude shows you in a descent, but altitude is steady, this is probably caused by the tailwinds going over the mountains just ahead of you.

You’re right about the % not being set correctly.  Ever since I updated firmware, it won’t let me set it correctly...   but I know the power settings to arrive where I want to operate, so I just ignore it.  

My AI was installed like that...   the G5 cannot adjust the pitch.   When I’m flying slower like on an instrument approach and with a heavier load, it is pretty close to right on it though.  That’s how it’s been for 2+ years..    but, what you say isn’t plausible.  I always flow with the family about 50-100lbs under gross and get about 148ktas, so I thought it was because I was so light.   

Edited July 1, 2020 by Browncbr1

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, Browncbr1 said:

You’re right about the % not being set correctly.  Ever since I updated firmware, it won’t let me set it correctly...   but I know the power settings to arrive where I want to operate, so I just ignore it.  

My AI was installed like that...   the G5 cannot adjust the pitch.   When I’m flying slower like on an instrument approach and with a heavier load, it is pretty close to right on it though.  That’s how it’s been for 2+ years..    but, what you say isn’t plausible.  I always flow with the family about 50-100lbs under gross and get about 148ktas, so I thought it was because I was so light.   

Interesting on the G5.  Mine is level in cruise.  There’s a thread around here showing how to enter setup menu and adjust it if you want.  Cruise is around 130IAS, vectors for approach is probably 110-120... probably still show you level.  Very little change in AOA.

[MBDiagMan]

15 hours ago, Browncbr1 said:

Here’s my F running at peak with just me and 30lbs luggage at 50gallons  152ktas on 8.5gph, PEAK, 9000ft

the OP probably didn’t use calibrated airspeed

i cant wait to see if the surefly makes a good difference ..  it goes on in a couple weeks  

 

 

Thanks very much for the data brown!  You are correct.  What he put in for CAS was what I read off the ASI.

I have had this plane awhile, but worked through some problems including a hot cylinder.  There is finally no longer the hot cylinder to worry about so we were able to dabble with LOP.  I was flying in IMC most of the trip and was not expecting this, but the instructor started playing with it.  If it had given me 135 knots at that burn I would have been impressed.  I had no idea what to expect.

In my excitement regarding Mooney efficiency I started this thread.  Apparently people got the idea that I was posting a “my airplane is faster than your airplane” thread, causing them to get defensive, or maybe even might appear offensive if I went back and studied it.

[Ragsf15e]

14 minutes ago, MBDiagMan said:

Thanks very much for the data brown!  You are correct.  What he put in for CAS was what I read off the ASI.

I have had this plane awhile, but worked through some problems including a hot cylinder.  There is finally no longer the hot cylinder to worry about so we were able to dabble with LOP.  I was flying in IMC most of the trip and was not expecting this, but the instructor started playing with it.  If it had given me 135 knots at that burn I would have been impressed.  I had no idea what to expect.

In my excitement regarding Mooney efficiency I started this thread.  Apparently people got the idea that I was posting a “my airplane is faster than your airplane” thread, causing them to get defensive, or maybe even might appear offensive if I went back and studied it.

I’m sorry you’ve taken offense to your thread.  MSers have lots of experience.  In my opinion, nobody tried to put you down or say their airplane was faster/better than yours.  We simply try to help people learn about their airplanes and flying in general. Confusion about IAS, CAS, TAS, and GS is common. In extreme conditions, this confusion or expectations of certain efficiency could lead to fuel exhaustion.  My thoughts?  Keep an open mind, try to take instruction and experience without getting offended.  MSers will have your back!

[Shadrach]

17 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

I'm not. I'm asking what should an average guy flying his airplane do as far as determining where to properly operate the engine. 

If you’re not using surefly then continue using the multiplier you’ve been using. 

[Bentonck]

@MBDiagoMan  ... that is awesome.  I grew up in Lone Star and Daingerfield before moving to Longview.  Used to have to go over to Mount Pleasant all the time to get tractor parts.  Great place.  Enjoy the plane!  It is made to go places. 

[MBDiagMan]

Did you go to Conroy Tractor?  He is friend of mine?

[MBDiagMan]

3 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

I’m sorry you’ve taken offense to your thread.  MSers have lots of experience.  In my opinion, nobody tried to put you down or say their airplane was faster/better than yours.  We simply try to help people learn about their airplanes and flying in general. Confusion about IAS, CAS, TAS, and GS is common. In extreme conditions, this confusion or expectations of certain efficiency could lead to fuel exhaustion.  My thoughts?  Keep an open mind, try to take instruction and experience without getting offended.  MSers will have your back!

I understand the experience pool here.  I thought I was asking for folks to share that.  
 

My apologies to all.

[Browncbr1]

21 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Interesting on the G5.  Mine is level in cruise.  There’s a thread around here showing how to enter setup menu and adjust it if you want.  Cruise is around 130IAS, vectors for approach is probably 110-120... probably still show you level.  Very little change in AOA.

I’ll look for that thread.   I was hesitant to touch it because it seems to work just fine when I’m flying an approach. I wish the G5 could be adjusted on the fly like every other AI.  

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, Browncbr1 said:

I’ll look for that thread.   I was hesitant to touch it because it seems to work just fine when I’m flying an approach. I wish the G5 could be adjusted on the fly like every other AI.  

“Big iron” ADIs generally can’t be adjusted in flight.  Obviously the Mooney isn’t big iron, but I think you’ll find it nice to have it level in cruise.  On approach you’ll have it slightly nose down during descent which is where you’re going, so it makes sense.  I think you’ll like it.

 

[MBDiagMan]

On 7/1/2020 at 8:20 AM, Ragsf15e said:

I’m sorry you’ve taken offense to your thread.  MSers have lots of experience.  In my opinion, nobody tried to put you down or say their airplane was faster/better than yours.  We simply try to help people learn about their airplanes and flying in general. Confusion about IAS, CAS, TAS, and GS is common. In extreme conditions, this confusion or expectations of certain efficiency could lead to fuel exhaustion.  My thoughts?  Keep an open mind, try to take instruction and experience without getting offended.  MSers will have your back!

Sorry to drag this back up, but I was not saying that others were saying that their plane was faster than mine.  I was trying to say that others got the idea that I was saying that MY airplane was faster than THEIRS and that was never my intention.  I was simply excited by what I saw and anxious for other information regarding speeds of the breed to compare to.  You provided information and shared your experience And I appreciate it.

It was never my intent and I apologize to all if it sounded that way.

[bonal]

On July 8, 2020 at 3:41 AM, MBDiagMan said:

Sorry to drag this back up, but I was not saying that others were saying that their plane was faster than mine.  I was trying to say that others got the idea that I was saying that MY airplane was faster than THEIRS and that was never my intention.  I was simply excited by what I saw and anxious for other information regarding speeds of the breed to compare to.  You provided information and shared your experience And I appreciate it.

It was never my intent and I apologize to all if it sounded that way.

Exactly the way I took it, you were sharing an emotion of happiness as you were seeing something pretty cool with your pride and joy. Absolutely nothing to be sorry about 

[211º]

Sorry to drag this back up, but I was not saying that others were saying that their plane was faster than mine.  I was trying to say that others got the idea that I was saying that MY airplane was faster than THEIRS and that was never my intention.  I was simply excited by what I saw and anxious for other information regarding speeds of the breed to compare to.  You provided information and shared your experience And I appreciate it.
It was never my intent and I apologize to all if it sounded that way.

Nothing to apologize for. How often do we get a taste of the simply joy of a kid and a new experience when we’re adults? Enjoy your Mooney.

I still have to apologize to my wife after an excellent flight - apologize because I’m talking animated and happily while to her it is kind of just another flight. However to me, I’ve again slayed gravity and mastered great circle routes.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[Browncbr1]

On 7/1/2020 at 9:53 AM, Shadrach said:

If you’re not using surefly then continue using the multiplier you’ve been using. 

Does the key number change when using surefly with advance?   I always have operated at about 46@peak

[Shadrach]

5 hours ago, Browncbr1 said:

Does the key number change when using surefly with advance?   I always have operated at about 46@peak

Yes, would be my answer. I don’t know what the new key number is. Changing ignition timing certainly affects internal cylinder pressure so it would effect power. Full disclosure, I’m not a propulsion engineer.

[carusoam]

Hmmm...

Our key numbers are based on HP...

So...

If we know the effect of SureFly on HP...

We could adjust the key numbers to match...
 

Probably makes them equivalent Key numbers once adjusted...

The key numbers are pretty round already... as is the whole red box...

Unfortunately, there isn’t enough improvement shown by a SureFly installation to be worth making this calculation change...

Compare before and after performance numbers...  Can you pull the MP back 0.5” Or pull out 50rpm.... and achieve the same performance?

PP thoughts only, not a test pilot...

Best regards,

-a-

[Shadrach]

9 hours ago, carusoam said:

Hmmm...

Our key numbers are based on HP...

So...

If we know the effect of SureFly on HP...

We could adjust the key numbers to match...
 

Probably makes them equivalent Key numbers once adjusted...

The key numbers are pretty round already... as is the whole red box...

Unfortunately, there isn’t enough improvement shown by a SureFly installation to be worth making this calculation change...

Compare before and after performance numbers...  Can you pull the MP back 0.5” Or pull out 50rpm.... and achieve the same performance?

PP thoughts only, not a test pilot...

Best regards,

-a-

This is what I alluded to in my conversation with Ken earlier. Short of a dynamometer the best proxy we have for horsepower is airspeed.

 

[M20F]

I have done 170’ish knots in my F, this why they are the best.