Ceramic Coating?

[PJClark]

C2V3 on plexiglas...

I don't know...been thinking about it.  I can't decide if it's my imagination, but it SEEMS like C2V3 sorta accidentally applied to wingtip lenses makes them look smoother, clearer, newer. I have not been able to take the plunge on the windscreen...

 

[aviatoreb]

Just now, PJClark said:

C2V3 on plexiglas...

I don't know...been thinking about it.  I can't decide if it's my imagination, but it SEEMS like C2V3 sorta accidentally applied to wingtip lenses makes them look smoother, clearer, newer. I have not been able to take the plunge on the windscreen...

 

I would guess it would wick water really well too for flying through rain.

But someone else go first...

[RLCarter]

2 hours ago, PJClark said:

C2V3 on plexiglas...

I don't know...been thinking about it.  I can't decide if it's my imagination, but it SEEMS like C2V3 sorta accidentally applied to wingtip lenses makes them look smoother, clearer, newer. I have not been able to take the plunge on the windscreen...

See if someone on the field has an old windscreen to test it on or call the manufacturer and ask?

[Joris]

9 hours ago, RLCarter said:

See if someone on the field has an old windscreen to test it on or call the manufacturer and ask?

Well, I applied "CarPro - C.Quartz CQ.UK 3.0" on my windscreen. Sure, water runs off the windscreen like it's a duck. But I hoped it would help removing insect-splats. But that's not the case.

What made my windscreen look nicer is machine polishing it with a finish compound.

[cliffy]

All I see are pictures of the top surfaces

Who out there actually did the bottom of the wings and fuselage?  :-) :-)

A decade ago I bought an 82' 911 SC with 14K miles on it in all that time.  Was a good car while I owned it and I didn't even get a speeding ticket in it, Why? I have no idea but luck. 

And if we go back in history on this website a good wax job is equal to 10 kts more TAS  :-) 

[ArtVandelay]

The problem with doing the bottom is getting it cleaned, I’ve done the bottom of the wings,etc. but the fuselage belly will need to be cleaned first.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

The problem with doing the bottom is getting it cleaned, I’ve done the bottom of the wings,etc. but the fuselage belly will need to be cleaned first.

I take mine off every annual and wax it anyway.

[WilliamR]

So, after many, many hours, I fully polished the entire plane including under the wings and as always, the belly.  Most would say the paint was already in good shape.  I washed with dawn to cut any oils, then clay barred.  After that I used various strengths of polish.  Took me forever to polish the back side of the prop to be shiny again. 

Ha! JK.

The painted stripes were very soft compared to the base white.  Getting the micro scratches out of the white paint around the fuel fillers was the hardest and still not quite done to perfection. I got as aggressive in polishing the white as I've ever gotten on any paint (rotary polisher with a lambs wool pad with some liquid compound).  Yes, I knew how much paint depth I had.

After polishing, I used the GTechniq Panel Wipe.  I found the Panel Wipe to be reactive to the very soft stripes.  Enough so, that I re-polished the red and gray (that added two hours to the process).  I then applied Gtechniq CSL and applied EXOv4 36 hours later.  I give me self an A-.  Here are some pics.

 

 

 

 

[WilliamR]

And a few more

 

[mike_elliott]

Excellent! Thats how the pros would do it, along with doing some paint correction like you did with the scratching. Not for the feint of heart, as it is all about the prep. Putting on the c2v3 is the easy part. Now, it will be easy to keep looking nice.

C2v3 might need to be redone in a year or 2 compared to the high priced variants that have up to a 10 year life, but man is it easy to work with and apply

[carusoam]

Fantastic water droplet pics!

Surface energy can be measured by the angle of the water droplet on the surface...

I don’t think round spheres sitting on the surface are accounted for using this technique... 

Negative angles?

That’s some low surface energy you have there... very few things will stick to that.

PP thoughts only, not a geometrist...

Best regards,

-a-

[aviatoreb]

18 minutes ago, carusoam said:

PP thoughts only, not a geometrist...

Best regards,

-a-

I would say you clearly aren't a real geometer since a real geometer would know that the word isn't geometrist which sounds more like a cross between geologist and optometrist.

[carusoam]

I need to remember... to not attempt math humor in front of flying mathematicians... 

Memory is not my strong suit...

 

So you (Erik) motivated me to look up what I was talking about....

Polymer scientists have to measure wettability to know if ink will stick to a plastic surface... for printing...
 

Things that stick to the surface well... generate a small angle as the liquid spreads out...
 

In this case... the angle exceeds 90° and looks like it might even be 160°

That might improve Mooney flying in the rain... even though our thin film experts (I think Ron May have covered the thin film issue yesterday)...have denounced this theory already... 

 

PP thoughts only... and nothing more.

Best regards,

-a-

Reference...  sort of a corona discharge used to oxidize the polymeric surface... to Control the way things stick.... we want to do the opposite... but the angle measurement is still valid...

Relevance of Plasma Processing on Polymeric Materials and Interfaces

PraveenK. M , ... Yves Grohens, in Non-Thermal Plasma Technology for Polymeric Materials, 2019

9 Water Contact Angle

Contact angle is one of the common ways to measure the wettability of a surface or material. Wetting refers to the study of how a liquid deposited on a solid (or liquid) substrate spreads out or the ability of liquids to form boundary surfaces with solid states. The wetting, as mentioned before, is determined by measuring the contact angle, which the liquid forms in contact with the solids or liquids. The wetting tendency is larger, the smaller the contact angle or the surface tension is. A wetting liquid is a liquid that forms a contact angle with the solid which is smaller than 90°, whereas, a nonwetting liquid creates a contact angle between 90 and 180° with the solid. The traditional definition of a contact angle is the angle a liquid creates with the solid or liquid when it is deposited on it.

[aviatoreb]

33 minutes ago, carusoam said:

I need to remember... to not attempt math humor in front of flying mathematicians... 

Memory is not my strong suit...
So you (Erik) motivated me to look up what I was talking about....

 

Yer doing fantastic Anthony. Im just having fun and enjoying your comments.

E

[Hank]

7 hours ago, carusoam said:

I need to remember... to not attempt math humor in front of flying mathematicians... 

Memory is not my strong suit...

 

So you (Erik) motivated me to look up what I was talking about....

Polymer scientists have to measure wettability to know if ink will stick to a plastic surface... for printing...
 

Things that stick to the surface well... generate a small angle as the liquid spreads out...
 

In this case... the angle exceeds 90° and looks like it might even be 160°

That might improve Mooney flying in the rain... even though our thin film experts (I think Ron May have covered the thin film issue yesterday)...have denounced this theory already... 

 

PP thoughts only... and nothing more.

Best regards,

-a-

Reference...  sort of a corona discharge used to oxidize the polymeric surface... to Control the way things stick.... we want to do the opposite... but the angle measurement is still valid...

Relevance of Plasma Processing on Polymeric Materials and Interfaces

PraveenK. M , ... Yves Grohens, in Non-Thermal Plasma Technology for Polymeric Materials, 2019

9 Water Contact Angle

Contact angle is one of the common ways to measure the wettability of a surface or material. Wetting refers to the study of how a liquid deposited on a solid (or liquid) substrate spreads out or the ability of liquids to form boundary surfaces with solid states. The wetting, as mentioned before, is determined by measuring the contact angle, which the liquid forms in contact with the solids or liquids. The wetting tendency is larger, the smaller the contact angle or the surface tension is. A wetting liquid is a liquid that forms a contact angle with the solid which is smaller than 90°, whereas, a nonwetting liquid creates a contact angle between 90 and 180° with the solid. The traditional definition of a contact angle is the angle a liquid creates with the solid or liquid when it is deposited on it.

In a former life, I used to mold parts thst were then corona-treated and coated, and measuring the contact angle was part of the acceptance testing of the finished part. It's the angle where the bottom of the bead first pulls away from the surface; a nice, slick coating should be a small angle with slicker surfaces having smaller angles. 

[jetdriven]

Is ceramic coating a scam?  This guy thinks so.  

 

[mike_elliott]

1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

Is ceramic coating a scam?  This guy thinks so.  

 

It is a coating, just like a wax, only lasts much longer and is much harder. Here in Fl, it protects the paint from the damage "love bugs" can do if left on the paint. The cost of ceramic isnt in the very easy wipe on, wipe off of the product or the 30-100$ cost of the material, but the 2 and 3 stage paint correction labor that needs to be done first before you seal it. Some people get this concept that time is money and some dont.

[jetdriven]

His thing was that a 30$ bottle of sealer is essentially the same thing. 

[mike_elliott]

I wonder how many he sold? I have seen a few cars here that have had ceramic coating on them for a couple of years and they still look great. I havent seen any common wax products hold up that long, have you by chance?

 

[jetdriven]

No. I’m not making that argument and either is he. Im skeptical of 9H nano claims. He said a bottle of Klasse also lass two years.  It’s not a wax.  It’s a sealant. He is thinking that this new stuff is repackaged sealant.  

[philiplane]

Rejex is a polymer sealant that has been around for years. People seem to have forgotten about it in the current "ceramic" craze. 

[mike_elliott]

1 minute ago, jetdriven said:

No. I’m not making that argument and either is he. Im skeptical of 9H nano claims. He said a bottle of Klasse also lass two years.  It’s not a wax.  It’s a sealant. He is thinking that this new stuff is repackaged sealant.  

Got it. His stuff is as expensive as what a lot of Mooney pilots have been using with great results, C2V3. Perhaps his works as well, but like you, I am skeptical of what I read on reddit without any testimonials from quality sources. Leading car care Companies that have adapted the science of ceramic nano coating include people like Meguiars, who arguably had some of the best paste products and sealants out prior to nano coating tech. 

[Mark89114]

I am of the opinion that ceramic coating is just a new trend/fad....not brave or knowledgeable enough to claim it is fraudulent.  Had my brand new car ceramic coated, seemed to be perfect for about 9 months but it has slowly faded to just regular. 9 months seems like the equivalent of regular sealant/wax....I really wish I had time to detail and take car of stuff better.  They get good cleanings every once in a while.

[aviatoreb]

I have no idea what is in C2V3 but for $30 bucks I love it.  Its fantastic.  EASY to apply and the results are head and shoulders above anything I have ever used before.  Since it is inexpensive and results are great - now 3 months on it still looks great - even if its only good for 3 moths it is well worth it.  If it last longer than all the better.

Yeah I have always figured its not ceramic as in "crystallinity of ceramic materials ranges from highly oriented to semi-crystalline, vitrified, and often completely amorphous " like actual glass.  I don't care.  I always figured it is some kind of polymer more like a epoxy.  Saying, oh its sealant is entirely not a descriptive term.  I could put white calk all over my airplane and call it sealant.  C2V3 goes on smooth, wipes on wipes off, and leaves an absolutely deep and clear and smoooooth finish and is absurdly easy to use and so far showing at least good to excellent durability - and we shall see how long it really lasts.  But so far its lasted long enough that I would do it again even if I needed to re-apply every 3 months.

[Rmag]

We have Ceramic Pro products.  Which is an installer only product.  I have not personally applied it, we have an employee who has detailed airplanes for decades trained to do it.  I am not a chemist so I can’t opine on how it’s different chemically than “sealant”. Technically is a ceramic coating is a “synthetic sealant”.  I googled searched and found, “Paint sealant is a polymer-based product which has both organic as well as inorganic ingredients.  Depending on the environment where the car is parked, paint sealant may last for four to six months. Ceramic coating has better durability when compared to paint sealant. It can last 3-4 years depending on how you maintain the vehicle.”  On the Ceramic Pro website they have the below graphic on their marine products page.  Not sure how much is marketing vs reality, but it’s there and I copied it, lol.

I have no experience with anything but the Ceramic Pro products.  I have it on a new Jeep Wrangler I bought last year, I have the marine coating on a 21’ boat, but I do not have it on my airplane.  I am a big fan of it on my Jeep and boat.  Makes washing your car much easier, bugs don’t stick will to the grill etc.  The boat is in a salt water environment and in a boat slip which is essentially the worst environment you can have this in.  I don’t have to wax it every month or so any more.  I just hose it down and chamois it down.

I will say that my Dad paid a car dealership to put a ceramic coating on a new vehicle and within less than a year you couldn’t tell.  I think he got ripped off or whatever the dealer used sucked.  The Ceramic Pro stuff works and lasts years.  He wound up paying to have it redone with Ceramic Pro.

I do know significant part of the labor cost is not the application, but rather the preparation.  Whatever you put the coating over will be sealed in.  So if you have dirt or a blemish, it’s gonna be sealed in.  So even my new Jeep direct from the factory and delivered to me, was washed and clay-barred and detailed before it was applied.  It was amazing how dirty a rag can be clay barring a clean brand spanking new paint job that has been completely washed already.

Now with all that said... why not the Mooney?  One big downside of the coating is that you cannot touch up paint without sanding the coating off.  Paint will peel right off the coating.  I think the Mooney is more subject to little nicks here and there around cowlings and covers, baggage door, fueling cap area, etc.  So I never did it.

We have however put it on helicopters more frequently it especially helps wiping soot off the tail boom and hell’s always fly lower smashing bugs.  TBMs also get a lot of soot on the fuselage so it’s great there too.

I guess I got a bit wordy here, I’m generally a big fan of the stuff, but the big downside is you can not use touch up paint without sanding it off.