Missile on grass?

[74657]

My wife wants to fly into a winery that has a 3,000 foot grass strip.  Never been on grass in my Mooney but have experience in my Tiger.  The strip I used to fly in/out of in the Tiger was 2800 ft.  How does the Mooney handle grass strips?

 

[Parker_Woodruff]

It had better be a real nice one for me to go into it.

I can only think of one I've ever been to (Flying V in Texas) that I would take a Mooney to.

[Hank]

I've taken my C in and out of several, but Missiles are somewhat nose-heavy, aren't they? That bodes poorly with regard to uneven ground and bumps . . .

[jlunseth]

I think what people are trying to say is that there is a risk with a Mooney on grass, that a rut or a hole that the gear drops into, will result in a prop strike.  I just don't take mine into grass for that reason.  I know a few people who do fly on grass with a Mooney, but you would need to be fairly confident the field is even and hole free.

[74657]

Sounds good.  Maybe I will counter with a trip down to Biltmore!  There was an article in an AOPA magazine a few months back with a winery and a small airport right next to the place.  Had a bed/breakfast at the winery too. 

[Seth]

I'd love to fly into a grass strip, but I don't think I'm going to in the Missile anytime soon until I really get a good feel for landings.  The F, maybe I'd try, but I never did.  I do hovever want to fly off grass at least once. 

-Seth

[John Pleisse]

I solo'ed on my 16th birthday on grass at Park Hall, MD (now closed). I had not landed on grass since, until about three years ago. I routinely land my 201 at Eagle's Nest (pvt- you must get to know the owner) north of the Delaware resort Beaches. It's a non issue for any Mooney. I didn't know how much I enjoyed sod. No chirp-chirp...you just flare and hear that sweet soft rumbling. Examining the codition of the runway prior is critical.  Bumpy sod or ruts are too much for Mooney's of any type and will get you into tank reseal problems among worse.

[aviatoreb]

Quote: Seth

I'd love to fly into a grass strip, but I don't think I'm going to in the Missile anytime soon until I really get a good feel for landings.  The F, maybe I'd try, but I never did.  I do hovever want to fly off grass at least once. 

-Seth

[Hank]

Quote: jlunseth

I think what people are trying to say is that there is a risk with a Mooney on grass, that a rut or a hole that the gear drops into, will result in a prop strike.  I just don't take mine into grass for that reason.  I know a few people who do fly on grass with a Mooney, but you would need to be fairly confident the field is even and hole free.

[carusoam]

Thoughts on Grass and long bodies....

[1] My insurance company will allow for it as long as it is an actual airport (not bryan's family ranch).

[2] At full power I was still unable to taxi out of my parking space at KOSH last year.  Once freed, Taxiing was quite a chore to maintain proper speed - throttle jockey.  up an down small hills....

[3] I think it needs to be dry (er) and hard (er) to not get stuck.  Remember your training, use power, elevator up, and keep it moving...... - throttle jockey

I have not tried landing on anything that isn't paved.  Maybe with enough friends available to get unstuck.....

Best regards,

-a-

[aviatoreb]

Quote: carusoam

Thoughts on Grass and long bodies....

[1] My insurance company will allow for it as long as it is an actual airport (not bryan's family ranch).

[2] At full power I was still unable to taxi out of my parking space at KOSH last year.  Once freed, Taxiing was quite a chore to maintain proper speed - throttle jockey.  up an down small hills....

[3] I think it needs to be dry (er) and hard (er) to not get stuck.  Remember your training, use power, elevator up, and keep it moving...... - throttle jockey

I have not tried landing on anything that isn't paved.  Maybe with enough friends available to get unstuck.....

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

Quote: carusoam

At full power I was still unable to taxi out of my parking space at KOSH last year.  Once freed, Taxiing was quite a chore to maintain proper speed - throttle jockey.  up an down small hills....

 

The key is to have a friend or two help push you out of your parking space. Over several days' time, the tires will sink into the ground a little bit. Push out of this, turn the plane, then get in, crank up and drive off. Of course, full UP elevator, keep it slow, and yes, the throttle requires adjustment to keep moving.

Pushing out of your space not only helps you start rolling, it won't pi$$ off people parked/walking behind you while you run full power trying to get moving. Saw a prop strike from someone doing that at Sun-N-Fun this year, not something you really want to do. It was a clearly audible event even for those who didn't see the mud fly.

Also, keep it slow--walking speed is good, use whatever power is necessary but don't brake, just reduce throttle a little bit.

[jasonwojo]

I have consistantly landed all my Mooneys on grass strips.  The Rockets have done just fine (except for one muddy experience on a strip we did not realize had its new grass seed watered nonstop for two weeks!).  Like any landing, speed management is important.  As a habit, I keep the nose wheel of all my planes, no matter what kind of runway, off the ground for as long as possible.  The Kansas/Oklahoma/Missouri/Arkansas area has a lot of nice little strips worth visiting that are easier reached via good ol' grass.  Beaumont (SN07) is where the historic Beaumont Hotel and last remaining Frisco-built wooden water tower is located.  Taxi down Main Street and park across the street from the hotel for a good meal.  My wife is from Greensburg (8K7) which is the town that was completely destroyed by a F5 tornadoe.  Unfortunately they recently closed this airport for new construction, but rumor is they will be building a new airport for the new town soon (will make visiting the inlaws a little easier, again).  Gastons (3M0) is a wonderful place to visit and relax in one of their cabins on the White River...good food too.  Council Grove (K63) is a very short strip where the lake house is located.  Turkey Mountain (MO00) is a long strip on Table Rock Lake where we own a part of a lot we may build on one day.  Pond Creek (2K1) has a great little restaurant across the street.  My friends, who own and live at Cook Airfield (K50), have a nice little strip next to their paved one.  Saint Francis (SYF) is managed by some really good friends and is home to the annual Stearman Fly-in.  The neighboring town of Bird City (5K0) has the Best Steaks in the world, yes world! (the cook is not too bad looking either!).  I guess my point is there is a lot to be missed if you don't land at grass airports.  Go practice on one and see for yourself!

[carusoam]

EB,

I have an M20R.

and like JasonW points out above, there are some great places that are covered in grass. 

My insurance company allows for it. 

I think it might be a good idea to try a lightly loaded grass take off first.  Find airpoirt with both paved and grass strip.

This will allow for ground level inspection, a quick taxi on the grass and a decent set of Plan Bs.

Just thinking out loud without commiting to anything....

Best regards,

-a-

[BorealOne]

I fly my Ovation onto gravel and dirt strips. Grass would be a better option, but unfortunately it just doesn't grow all that well in the North...

[GeorgePerry]

I'm in the "don't do it" camp.  Mooney's were never designed to operate from grass.  Rubber puck shock disks and low prop clearance reduce margins of safety when compared to purpose built bush planes.  That's not to say Mooney's can't, it just means the airframe design lends itself to increased risk.  If it goes wrong, it'll be REALLY EXPENSIVE to fix.  Land on pavement and drive the rest of the way.  My2cnts

[podair]

there are grass airfields and grass airfields....

I have landed at grass airfields smoother than certain tarmac ones.

I fly my M20F routinely from a 2500ft grass airfield and it is perfectly fine. Just watch out on grass taxiways they tend not to be as well kept as the main runways. 

Yes, you have to be careful with prop and gear door clearances, as well as the fairly long fuselage, but frankly I don't think Mooneys are worse than other types on grass, as long at it is a proper airfield with a decent runway surface. The rubber donoughts don't help either but again, I ve had my old Mooney shake more on certain tarmac airfields. I would be wary of flying into a strip I haven't inspected first nonetheless, or had a chat with someone who flies there.

Later long body types and I guess Missiles might have an issue with the heavier engine but I don't know.

 

 

[Awful_Charlie]

I'm with podair on this - one of my regular destination is 3000' of grass and the surface is free from undulations, although the 'clump' style grass makes a nasty din, I've been on worse tarmac.

Soft surface with a Bravo is a bit uncomfortable due to the weight on the nosewheel, but I'm more unhappy (particularly on departure) about going though grass more than 2 or 3 inches tall, which gets picked up on the prop, the u/c doors, the brakes.....

[fantom]

I am firmly in the "ain't gonna do it" camp. Just too many uncontrollable variables on grass. Yes, your first 999 landings may be fine but that next one could be very expensive. Prop clearance, low handing gear doors, grass and mud in wheel wheels and brakes, gopher holes, hidden water, that bumpy ride on the airframe, (loose) avionics, wing tank sealant, and the stones and other junk on my undercarriage....nope, I'll suffer and go to a "real" runway.

Hidden holes, large unseen rocks, and other little nastiness don't bode well with grass landings either. Many insurance policies DON'T cover grass accidents, there must be a reason most rental planes specifically prohibit grass fields, and try as I may, I can't find any grass performance landing data in my POH. Just imagine how that datum would vary for wet grass, tall grass, and hard or soft or shallow underlying ground. Too many Mooney friends have told me over the years that they believe grass fields were a major contributor to their fuel leaks.

I've landed on grass many times....just not in my plane. YMMV.

[David Mazer]

I have never taken my Rocket on to grass but I have taken a J on grass with no problem.  In fact, the J is based at a grass strip.  Further, my home base, KSFB, has some areas on the tarmac I won't use because they are so rough and I'm worried about a prop strike.  Same goes for some taxiways at FXE.  I'm not sure one is safe on blacktop and so the real issue is taking adequate precautions wherever.

[Shadrach]

The biggest issue with taking a Mooney into a grass field is the lower gear doors on models so equipped. Those of you who say that they "were not designed for it" must have some clairvoyant ability to communicate with the late great Al mooney himself as I see no reason or great risk with landing on grass. Nor does my POH make any recommendation of it not being recommended.

I regularly take my M20F in and out of and 1800ft turf strip in fair (undulating with clumpy crab grass) condition. It's a non-issue. The prop has 9" of clearance, maybe ~6" if the suspension is compressed. If you're encountering those kind of holes, then it's not a grass strip landing, it's bush work... Being that the rocket has the lower main gear doors, you don't want to land at a place where the grass is more than ~4" high, because you will have to clean off grass stains.  

The moral of this story is think about what you're doing before you do it. Make sure that the field doesn't have holes the size of Dallas. A Mooney is just fine on grass as the gear system is far hardier than their lesser brethren which folks take into and out off grass without thinking about it.

[triple8s]

I was told by a fellow that is near 70 yr old and has LOTS of Mooney experience, the outer doors should come off if you plan on doing it in the grass. He said he wouldnt do it regularly with what he called "a big bore mooney", the reason he gave was the extra shock loads a rough field would put on the cage with a long heavy FWF hangin out there. I would guess if it was smooth enough it wouldnt be an issue but if i had a late model mooney I wouldnt do it without walking up and down the strip first. I would give it a try with my old C model, guess its really a personal choice as to how much you are willing to chance.

[jlunseth]

Grass update:

We have a program here in Minnesota called the Passport Program, where you fly around and collect stamps for landing at each airport in the state.  There are 135 airports in the program, of which 22 are grass.  I have been playing around with this, and got together with another pilot to fly the grass strips.  We rented a 172 and did 13 grass landings and takeoffs one day last weekend (plus an asphalt strip for fuel). 

What I immediately noticed about soft field landings is that they are really soft, especially if you use good technique.  They went so well in the 172 that I thought I would fly a few in my 231, so I did that this past Saturday.  Four grass strip landings, and one additional takeoff on a field where I landed on the asphalt, then it looked like the grass was closer and better aligned to the wind, so I took that instead of the asphalt.

All the grass fields I have landed on have been in good shape, but then they are all regularly used landing strips.  Your brother-in-law's neighbor's friend's back forty might be a different story. 

The landings were not quite as soft in the Mooney as in the Cessna, but at least as smooth as the Mooney on as asphalt.  Just don't forget to use good soft field technique.  Hopefully we all learned to do soft field takeoffs and landings as part of Private Pilot.  The only thing I noticed that was a little different, was how the Mooney reacted on takeoff.  I have practiced soft field takeoff technique on asphalt strips.  The Mooney leaves the ground fairly quickly.  Sort of feels like it flies "over a hump" and then the nose settles down and the plane flies flat in ground effect.  On grass, for whatever reason, the plane wanted to fly in quite a high angle of attack in ground effect for a goodly distance before it would flatten out and feel more normal.  Not a big deal, just a difference.

I did notice that some of the fields appeared as though they had been wet at one time, and had a few small ruts.  Nothing that posed a threat to the aircraft, but it did make me think that flying into a grass strip the day after a rainstorm might not be the brightest thing.

It was interesting and really enjoyable.  I would have to say that I am now just as comfortable on grass as I am on asphalt, and the Mooney has not complained yet either.   I have four or five more grass strip landings to do sometime in the next couple of weeks, to finish the Passport Program.  Am looking forward to it. 

[Hank]

Grass is great! It's just more difficult cleaning wet grass and dirt from the bottom of the wing than it is on a Cessna. The joy of [dewy] morning landings . . .

[aviatoreb]

Quote: Hank

Grass is great! It's just more difficult cleaning wet grass and dirt from the bottom of the wing than it is on a Cessna. The joy of [dewy] morning landings . . .