Adding Built in Oxygen to Ovation

[PMcClure]

My Ovation 2 does not have built in oxygen, which seems like an obvious omission that limits the plane's capabilities. That said, I typically  fly on the east coast and 6,500 to 9,500'. I am very comfortable below 12k without O2. But my wife passes out above 6,000'. With upcoming flights between Dallas and Alabama and aging, I am thinking about adding 02 for both personal safety/comfort and performance. 

I would prefer an installed system over a portable system. MH only does the portable systems for certified aircraft. I found Precise Flight has a certified system, which they say is basically the OEM system that Mooney put in factory installs. https://www.preciseflight.com/general-aviation/shop/kit/built-oxygen-system-mooney/

A few questions:

1. Any other options I am missing?
2. Any experience with Precise Flight? Anyone purchase this system? Pictures
3. Their system is 77cu feet? I think the Ovation install has 115 cu feet. Enough?
4. Any recommended training resources for high altitude flying/ O2 systems
5. Any picture of installed systems in Ovations for a go buy if we install this system?

I had O2 in my Bonanza before but only used it a few times to go over Atlanta space and out west at 10k for comfort. 

Thanks in advance. 

[smwash02]

How much you plan to use it (hours/year)?

 

 

[PMcClure]

50 minutes ago, smwash02 said:

How much you plan to use it (hours/year)?

 

 

If I have it, I think i will use it most XC flights. So, 50-75 hours a year.

[hypertech]

My ovation has factory O2.  The ports are in the headliner and the valve is by the pilots left knee.  The other thing you get is an external filling port.  While it works well, I would think it could be a real pain and expensive to retro in the factory system.  What do you view the advantage of "built in" vs getting a good size portable unit and sitting it in the back seat / baggage?

Although we have it, being on the east coast, I have used it precisely twice.  Once after I bought the plane to make sure it worked, and once for the last half hour or so into Aspen.

Have you flown with a pulse ox?  I know some people are more sensitive than others, but half the country is at a ground elevation above 6k and even commercial airliners often don't pressurize to an altitude that low.  If its truly lack of oxygen, there might be something to sort out there.  If its just getting to cruise flight and falling asleep, plenty of people do that and adding O2 may not change it.

[Yetti]

The system in the link may be fine, but holy cow that is a messy install with a cheap plastic fuse holder that serves no purpose cause it is on the wrong end of the line to boot.

[smwash02]

29 minutes ago, PMcClure said:

If I have it, I think i will use it most XC flights. So, 50-75 hours a year.

Pretty moderate usage then, there are more heavy users than I but here's my comments based on my use of a bottle in my C and built in in my K

1) In the flatlands it's hard to find O2, it's expensive, and I don't always get a full charge.

2) At 77cuft you'll need at least one refill a year probably. Oxysavers will help, O2D2 will help much more.

3) A portable bottle with an O2D2 would last you longer and potentially be more convenient since you could refill it at any oxygen supply or welding shop

4) If your wife sleeps during flights, consider a mask to make sure she continues to get oxygen.

 

In your shoes, I'd get 1-2 smaller bottles (I had an M24), an O2D2, and strap it to the baggage area with a set of masks. If you find it inconvenient, upgrade to the precise flight keeping the O2D2 to get a lot more time out of it.

 

[GeeBee]

Typical airline cabin attitude is 8000'. If your wife is falling asleep it may or may not be hypoxia.  To be sure you should check her with a pulse ox meter on her finger tip. They are cheap enough, about 40 to 50 bucks at CVS. I thought my wife had low saturation, until I checked it and hers is better than mine! She just falls asleep in riding in vehicles. If you get an O2 system you are going to want one anyway to verify appropriate O2 flow. If your wife has low blood O2 saturation on a regular basis you may want to spend the money on a portable O2 concentrator rather buying a whole O2 system. They are about 3 grand, but if your wife has to use O2 because of chronic low blood saturation, it would be cheaper in the long run. They make battery units and even battery units with 12volt charging, so it will run forever. Check out Inogen.com

I can tell you for a fact a new Kelvar bottle and regulator will run you 3 grand (I just replaced mine on EOL basis) , then you got the mounting hardware, the plumbing, the ports, the masks AND then all the labor to install it. Plus about 100 bucks every time you fill the bottle. You could most like buy 4 concentrators and be money ahead.

I used to live on the West coast and did a lot of mountain flying. I certainly am not the same man now as then, but really with careful planning you can fly most places without O2. I ferried have ferried a lot of airplanes across this country, the latest a PA18 SuperCub with no O2 from SEA to ATL.

In my Ovation, I have used my system only once, when I went to 15K to top some weather over the Dakotas. Other than that, I have not used it. Personally I would rather have a couple of concentrators sitting behind the seat when I need O2 rather than the built in system. Lower maintenance, less ongoing cost.

By the way, why would you go over the top of ATL Class B? You can't see see General Lee on Stone Mountain at 11K!

[ilovecornfields]

My Ovation has built-in oxygen and I use it on almost every flight. My O2D2 automatically activates at 5000 ft and turns off below 5000’. My wife used to almost never use oxygen since her oxygen saturation was always good but tried it out a few trips ago and now uses it on every flight as well (says she feels more refreshed and less tired at the end of the trip).

If I didn’t already have the tank built-in I would just get the O2D2 system and a portable bottle as mentioned above. It will probably last you at least 3-6 months and is super easy to fill.

Kudos to you for using oxygen, even when you don’t “have” to.

[PMcClure]

The main goal of O2 is more comfort than flying in the flight levels. My wife does have problems in commercial flights. Besides falling asleep, she gets headaches on many of our XC flights and also on long commercial flights. We have used O2 before so I know it helps her. Also for me, I know I am more alert and refreshed on 02 on long flights, even below 10k' feet. But we also are planning on doing more travel around the USA now that the kids are almost self sufficient and we have more time. There are times and places where flying higher is better. We discussed buying more plane but ultimately decided that 51K is a perfect XC machine, but would like to upgrade the avionics and have oxygen. Basically, making the plane we want rather than buy a new one. 

Built in vs add on - more preference than anything. I really don't want to put a tank in the back seat and have hoses running everywhere. But I could compromise with a tank in the baggage area as long as the the install looks professional. Any pictures would be appreciated. 

[larryb]

I have a built in tank and still use it with the O2D2. A fill lasts a year. If my plane did not come with a built in tank I would just use a portable tank. Just get the O2D2 with two 24 cuft tanks. Each tank will give you 24 hours flying time for two people. A spare tank means you won’t run out on a trip and won’t need to worry about finding somebody to fill it.

 

Even with a portable tank you can do a clean install with tubes running behind panels and the O2D2 mounted in a convenient place.

 

[PMcClure]

2 hours ago, GeeBee said:

Typical airline cabin attitude is 8000'. If your wife is falling asleep it may or may not be hypoxia.  To be sure you should check her with a pulse ox meter on her finger tip. They are cheap enough, about 40 to 50 bucks at CVS. I thought my wife had low saturation, until I checked it and hers is better than mine! She just falls asleep in riding in vehicles. If you get an O2 system you are going to want one anyway to verify appropriate O2 flow. If your wife has low blood O2 saturation on a regular basis you may want to spend the money on a portable O2 concentrator rather buying a whole O2 system. They are about 3 grand, but if your wife has to use O2 because of chronic low blood saturation, it would be cheaper in the long run. They make battery units and even battery units with 12volt charging, so it will run forever. Check out Inogen.com

I can tell you for a fact a new Kelvar bottle and regulator will run you 3 grand (I just replaced mine on EOL basis) , then you got the mounting hardware, the plumbing, the ports, the masks AND then all the labor to install it. Plus about 100 bucks every time you fill the bottle. You could most like buy 4 concentrators and be money ahead.

I used to live on the West coast and did a lot of mountain flying. I certainly am not the same man now as then, but really with careful planning you can fly most places without O2. I ferried have ferried a lot of airplanes across this country, the latest a PA18 SuperCub with no O2 from SEA to ATL.

In my Ovation, I have used my system only once, when I went to 15K to top some weather over the Dakotas. Other than that, I have not used it. Personally I would rather have a couple of concentrators sitting behind the seat when I need O2 rather than the built in system. Lower maintenance, less ongoing cost.

By the way, why would you go over the top of ATL Class B? You can't see see General Lee on Stone Mountain at 11K!

Noted on the pulse ox meter. I'll order one. 

And thanks for the suggestion on the concentrators. That would help, but wouldn't be legal as a O2 supply?  Would help with the comfort issue,  I bet. 

[GeeBee]

According to both Inogen and Aviation Consumer their units are FAA approved and meet the requirements for supplemental oxygen. However one unit is only rated to 15,000 while another is rated to 18,000. You should consult Inogen about your needs. 

Right now, most airlines do not supply supplemental oxygen bottles anymore. You have to bring your own concentrator and sufficient batteries for the flight duration.

 

http://www.inogenaviator.com/products.html

[carusoam]

omission?

We have four options that could have been checked the day the plane was purchased....

1)AC

2)O2

3)FIKI

4)Pb

 

inogen systems have limited output great for one person... check the details see when it changes again... or expect to buy two...?

Portable systems are good to determine if it will work as expected... for your situation...

 

I have the Plumbum (Pb)option... Would love to trade it for the full O2 system in the tail.. Kevlar not needed...

WnB is important... what other options did you check?

 

There are threads around here on how to fill your own O2 tanks...

 

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

best regards,

-a-

 

[PMcClure]

I have A/C (necessity in Alabama!). I say omission, because with a service ceiling of 20,000' you must have O2 to get there. FIKI could be a limitation for others, but I would rather have the weight for passengers. The Inogen systems are an interesting option. But considering I would need two, the cost comes above a portable and almost to a 4 place built in system. They would be great for a single pilot or passenger the moves around from plane to plane. 

How do you value the Pb option? @carusoam

I will look again at the portable systems. 02D2 seems an obvious option. Thanks again for all the suggestions! Any other advice welcome. 

[GeeBee]

Lift a 115 steel tank and lift a AL/Kelvar tank. Think about the datum arm it is on and you will believe you want an AL/Kelvar tanks. 12 pound difference.

 

 

[carusoam]

Gents work with me for a moment...

I once worked in marketing... writing brochures for technical machinery... I made a really good website...

My plane’s tail is option free... 

A vast open space...

Unfortunately all this emptiness comes at a cost...

The WnB must be maintained using Lead (Pb) bricks...

So...

Doing the math...

A steel tank may weigh a lot and be really cheap... and a Kevlar tank may be really light.... and have a less enjoyable life cycle...

In the end, while installing a light or heavy tank...

I will be removing the same amount (weight) of Palumbum that is already bolted in the tail...

Call it a wash...

Long bodies have an interesting amount of flexibility to add things in the tail... just toss out the ballast.

Now...

If you already have Fiki or AC, lucky you... you will have a lot less Pb back there...

Hmmm... I considered buying parts to install an O2 System once... it is un-fun to leave such awesome performance on the table... leveling off at 12.5k’ when you can easily go higher...

Check in with Doc John... last I knew he had Some O parts for mounting the bottle in the tail... leftover from his O/F updates...

For more details... the bricks are quantified in the POH WnB section...

Best regards,

-a-

[Shiny moose]

Save your money and downtime, buy a portable O2 system, a few tanks if you need that much, fill off airport. I have a sky ox, small enough, hangs on seat back. I have filled it 2 times in 3 years.  You can borrow my system  for a few flights if you come get it and bring it back.

See if your wife wants things stuck up her nose for the whole flight, or will you be upgrading to a pressurized airplane Which will still put the cabin above 6K if you fly it where it needs to be To get the performance you paying for 

My .02

[Gagarin]

I have a 13cuft  portable oxygen tank that I place neatly in between the back bucket seats of my 1982 M20J for long trips. It works very well and much cheaper to refill than the permanent tank. I just get refill at a SCUBA shop with NITROX capability for $10. 

Edited January 19, 2020 by Gagarin

[M20F-1968]

I have a system from a 1998 Ovation.  It was installed in its entirety.  I originally installed the 115 cubic foot bottle, then down sized to a 55 cubic foot bottle to save weight.  

The original system works well.  Scott 2 stage regulator with altitude compensation.  I retrofitted the entire Ovation interior into my F model, so it has the O2 shut-off valve next to the pilot's L knee, and O2 Outlets in the headliner, outside filler access.  

I have the original Scott O2 Bottle brackets (two) used to mount the 115 cubic foot bottle into the airplane if interested.  

 A new Kevlar bottle is about $1500.00.  The Scott 2 stage regulator is quite expensive and you should probably look for a used one and have it rebuilt.  

The installation is doable.  

John Breda

[thinwing]

I agree the 115 composite bottle is probably over kill...it will last about 40 hrs of use...we don’t need that much probably...

[M20F-1968]

Highly recommend one of Mountain High's O2D2 on demand oxygen pulse systems.  

Website:  https://www.mhoxygen.com/product-category/portable-pulse-demand/o2d2/

I flew 38 hours in 2 weeks, and my O2 psi only went down about 200 psi over the 2 weeks.

John Breda

[PMcClure]

I am still waiting on the price and installation instructions from Precision Air for the OEM type system. Thanks for all the suggestions in the meantime.

Recent flight to Dallas and back, had a pulse ox meter. Both of us were 88-92% after 30 minutes at 8,000. However, she was tired after 30 minutes and after 3 hours, she had a frontal headache, fatigue and numbness in her fingers and toes. Ox Meter still showed 88-90% after 3 hours. She is fit (Crossfit and marathon runner). Her symptoms seem like classic altitude sickness to me and I have seen it in several people and myself when mountain climbing. My 02 levels were also 88-92% but I had no noticeable side effects. 

Return flight, we were at 9,000 and even 11,000 for a while. She was alert, but still have finger/toe numbness and a headache. Muffler is 1 year old and we had the heater on both ways. Was thinking C0 could be a problem but doubt it. Good news is she wants to fly more in the future and I would like to help solve her issues. May purchase/borrow a portable system to see if it helps. 

 

[carusoam]

CO meters are good at taking CO out of the equation...

Unfortunately, the pulse OX see CO as O2... and gives improper data when that occurs...

PP thoughts only find @DanM20C’s thread and find the discount for the common CO meter of MSers... 

Best regards,

-a-

[Oldguy]

10 hours ago, PMcClure said:

May purchase/borrow a portable system to see if it helps. 

Give me a shout if you would like to use my portable system. I think I have everything for two users, although the bottle might need topping up. You can PM me here or let Rickey know and I will get it all together for you.