Strange (to me) departure procedure

[DonMuncy]

I flew home from Centennial airport today. I filed through Fltplan.com. I received a message that the likely route would be Pikes 1 Departure. I printed a copy, as is my "belt and suspenders" habit. I got ready to go and called clearance delivery. They told me I was to use the Denver 1 departure. My Garmin 430 doesn't recognize a Denver 1 departure. 

After I got home today, I went on AirNav and found that departure.

Basically, fly the heading and altitude assigned at take-off, and if com is lost, "do this".

Is this common and I have just been living under a rock?

 

Denver 1.docx Denver 1 a.docx

[ohdub]

The Denver1 is a radar vector SID (as opposed to an RNAV SID), they are typically fly heading xxx for radar vectors, climb and maintain x,000' + comm failure instructions. They are not contained in the GPS database as there are no waypoints and therefore nothing for the GPS to navigate. And yes, they are common

Edited December 12, 2019 by ohdub

[carusoam]

It’s great having the ATC side on MS!

Thanks for sharing the details, ohdub!

 

Don, seems like living on the plains, vs. living next to a rock... may have caused the challenge... 

Best regards,

-a-

[Cody Stallings]

I had the same issue few months ago at Fayetteville Drake Field(FYV).

Was assigned the Razorback 1 Departure by the Tower while taxi out. As you did I was digging through the G device looking for it with no luck.

Was just a turn from 160(Rwy heading) to 180 an climb to 4K. 

BTW!!

That departure is the only way The Razorbacks can be Mistaken for #1

Edited December 13, 2019 by Cody Stallings
Fat Fingers (Spelling)

[Hank]

@Cody Stallings-- Razorbacks, razorbacks . . . . Didn't I see them on our schedule a month or two ago???    

War Eagle!  

[midlifeflyer]

"Pure" Radar vector SIDs are quite common.

remember, a SID and a STAR are nothing more than canned clearances common to an area. Anything which can be the subject of ATC instructions for departure or arrival can be the content,

Edited December 12, 2019 by midlifeflyer

[Danb]

Don like Mark mentioned I’ve received a few in the last yr or so and Detroit basically clearance delivery could have just said keep assigned alt and intercept maars then as filed, the first time I received it I scrambled ForeFlight only realizing how easy it was, I guess it’s easier for them to say 5000 Metro one then as filed. Instead of 5000 direct Maars then as filed ? With ForeFlight and all our advanced avionics it’s easy to just assume and be ready for the dc and go for it.

[chrisk]

When I fly from Galveston, I always get the "Industry Nine" departure.  It's basically 2 pages to say maintain runway heading to 800 feet, then radar vectors.

[midlifeflyer]

19 hours ago, Danb said:

Don like Mark mentioned I’ve received a few in the last yr or so and Detroit basically clearance delivery could have just said keep assigned alt and intercept maars then as filed, the first time I received it I scrambled ForeFlight only realizing how easy it was, I guess it’s easier for them to say 5000 Metro one then as filed. Instead of 5000 direct Maars then as filed ? With ForeFlight and all our advanced avionics it’s easy to just assume and be ready for the dc and go for it.

One thing a little different about the DENVER SID (and a few others)  is, if you have Foreflight, you will notice it doesn't come up in the procedure advisor. It doesn't even come up in a Garmin or IFD certified box. That's because it is literally a "pure" vectored SID. There is no route to intercept, so nothing for it to load on your map or flight plan.

[Jerry 5TJ]

These departures are available in the ForeFlight airport information page under, ah, Departures.   The listed departures can’t be overlaid on the map page nor sent to the panel as part of a route.
The databases for the panel nav box don’t list all procedures, just the ones it is certified to fly, so when I get an unexpected (unexpected by me, that is) procedure I check ForeFlight first. 

[midlifeflyer]

10 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

These departures are available in the ForeFlight airport information page under, ah, Departures.   The listed departures can’t be overlaid on the map page nor sent to the panel as part of a route.
The databases for the panel nav box don’t list all procedures, just the ones it is certified to fly, so when I get an unexpected (unexpected by me, that is) procedure I check ForeFlight first. 
 

Yes, the charts are of course available, just like in paper and every EFB. And all of them which have a route can be sent into the flight plan of those EFBs which have that functionionality and to a box with the proper certification. I was only differentiating those which don't have a routing, like the DENVER. 

For example, the same list from the same airport in the route advisor procedure selector, minus one.

 

Edited December 13, 2019 by midlifeflyer

[Browncbr1]

Yea, many airports especially under bravo have dp that are just RV and altitudes.   I always get those around Cincinnati or other busy spaces.  Here in Knoxville, the only DP is the Knoxville Six.   I’ve never heard it actually given because all the controllers prefer to just assign a heading and altitude limit.    Look up the Knoxville Six and you will wonder why it is even published.  

[gsxrpilot]

What I've learned from six months of flying under the Denver Bravo is to never pick up my clearance on the ground. I'll file IFR, tell tower that I'll pick it up "if I need it" and depart. Once clear of the Bravo and the Mode C vail, I'll ask approach to pick up my clearance. 

My experience picking up a clearance on the ground has been to always get a terrible departure SID. And usually required to fly the full departure before turning on course. By departing VFR and getting the clearance later, I'm regularly cleared to climb straight through the Bravo VFR.

Odd, but seems to work around here.

[DonMuncy]

It was only disconcerting to me because of my ignorance of their existence. Next time I am given a departure that is not listed in my 430 database, I will assume it is this type and look on FlyQ for it. I will check later to confirm that FlyQ has the same information as Foreflight.

[DonMuncy]

2 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

What I've learned from six months of flying under the Denver Bravo is to never pick up my clearance on the ground. I'll file IFR, tell tower that I'll pick it up "if I need it" and depart. Once clear of the Bravo and the Mode C vail, I'll ask approach to pick up my clearance. 

My experience picking up a clearance on the ground has been to always get a terrible departure SID. And usually required to fly the full departure before turning on course. By departing VFR and getting the clearance later, I'm regularly cleared to climb straight through the Bravo VFR.

Odd, but seems to work around here.

Very nice advice Paul. I suspect that it would be rare in the Dallas class B to get a VFR clearance through. It has been several years since they let me in Bravo VFR.

[mike_elliott]

I went VFR from KGGG to KFTW, was vectored over the top of DFW.

[gsxrpilot]

When I lived in the DFW area I learned that it was easy to get East/West Bravo access but not so easy to get North/South access. 

A route between the Cowboy - Maverick - Ranger VOR's will have you cross right over the center of the runways at DFW. And it's the one area of the Bravo that the big boys never use.

[Hank]

16 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

 

A route between the Cowboy - Maverick - Ranger VOR's will have you cross right over the center of the runways at DFW. And it's the one area of the Bravo that the big boys never use.

That's the exact route that ATL will never allow me . . . .

[Bob - S50]

8 minutes ago, Hank said:

That's the exact route that ATL will never allow me . . . .

That's probably because of the arrival routing they use at ATL.  They bring you in at 10,000' until about 15 miles from the airport.  If you are on the wrong end of the airport they give you a vector downwind with gradual descents as you go.  Abeam the runway it was not uncommon to still be up at 8000'.  So in order to be above that traffic you would probably want to be at 10,000' or higher.

Personally, it I was flying around ATL, I'd probably just plan on avoiding the Class B and start the deviation early.  The earlier you start turning to avoid the Class B, the fewer extra miles it will cost you.  I'd probably plan my route to cross over either TEMPO to the west or CONNI to the east.

[amillet]

13 minutes ago, Hank said:

That's the exact route that ATL will never allow me . . . .

You must have pi$$ed off ATL ATC. Try changing your N number

[Culver LFA]

16 minutes ago, Hank said:

That's the exact route that ATL will never allow me . . . .

I got that route once, while VFR over Atlanta middle of the night. And I've been told to remain clear of Bravo more times than I can count. 

 

[mike_elliott]

I have been routed over the top of ATL VFR at about 5500' if memory is right many times going into KRYY. Maybe its because of having ads-b out, Hank

 

[Hank]

6 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

I have been routed over the top of ATL VFR at about 5500' if memory is right many times going into KRYY. Maybe its because of having ads-b out, Hank

 

Probably because your destination is inside the ring.

42 minutes ago, Bob - S50 said:

That's probably because of the arrival routing they use at ATL.  They bring you in at 10,000' until about 15 miles from the airport.  If you are on the wrong end of the airport they give you a vector downwind with gradual descents as you go.  Abeam the runway it was not uncommon to still be up at 8000'.  So in order to be above that traffic you would probably want to be at 10,000' or higher.

Personally, it I was flying around ATL, I'd probably just plan on avoiding the Class B and start the deviation early.  The earlier you start turning to avoid the Class B, the fewer extra miles it will cost you.  I'd probably plan my route to cross over either TEMPO to the west or CONNI to the east.

I generally go by at 9500 or higher. They used to tell me to "remain clear" of the Bravo, but lately it has been "stay out" of the Bravo . . . Charlotte and Cincinnati are much nicer to transient FLIBs, I've been cleared into them multiple times [and a very high percentage of my requests].

To get around IFR, it's usually either HECLA or SINCA; several times when ATL is on my direct course as above, Approach has actually asked me which one I prefer, and I choose by the view out the windshield. But VFR, I like to stay closer than that, they are well out of the way.

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, DonMuncy said:

It was only disconcerting to me because of my ignorance of their existence. Next time I am given a departure that is not listed in my 430 database, I will assume it is this type and look on FlyQ for it. I will check later to confirm that FlyQ has the same information as Foreflight.

You would only expect to get a radar vector DP if you fly out of an airport that is under an Approach controller and has good radar coverage near the ground, so by definition you'd have to be near a major airport.  On the other hand, if you're TOO close to a major airport, they're more likely to give you a typical SID.

[DonMuncy]

I hangar at RBD under DFW class B. I am not aware there is a vector departure here, although I don't know that I keep up with it very well.