Would you buy a new J/K?

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, moontownMooney said:

How about an M20J kit (experimental, for home build)?

I like this idea a lot. 

You could have a single kit with options for either the NA engine E20J (Experimental) or the Turbo engine E20K Encore.

Make sure both have the UL of the Encore or there about.

Mooney could just sell Firewall back kits. The builder then sources their own engine, avionics, paint, etc. They could offer a 1 month factory assist build program as well. 

I'll bet they'd be profitable and probably have to expand the work force.

I'd probably go put a deposit down on an Encore kit.

[Parker_Woodruff]

4 hours ago, jlunseth said:

Parker and Paul-

Paul has a 252, Parker ran an actual Encore as I recall (220 HP instead of 210).  The big difference is in the engine.  You can add the Merlyn sort-of-automatic wastegate and an intercooler to the 231, but the induction system still does not run like the MB or SB engines.  They were much better engines, even though all three (231, 252, and Encore) had TSIO360's.  I just can't run LOP above around 16,000 and usually lower than that, in my 231.  If it cooled better I probably could.  That is part of my point, I get really good LOP performance from my first generation (for Mooney) turbo, sell a new version with the SB or an even better engine and it would be competitive, I will wager.  The Acclaims can't match the useful load and 800,000+ for a single engine piston is only going to work for a small group of buyers.

 

Got it. I forgot about the wastegate piece that could be causing your issues.  Mine was a 1987 M20K converted to an Encore.  Exceptional airplane and now there are many getting the upgrade.  I wish there was such an option for the 231s.  I sorely miss N252BH.

[gsxrpilot]

I know there are some 231's that will run LOP in the flight levels.  Brian Lloyd flies a 231. His is fitted with an intercooler, waste gate, and GAMI's. He flew it around the world almost the whole trip at FL210.

His power settings were 31" 2450 and 10gph. He's a good one to speak with if you're trying to fly higher while keeping it all cool.

[1964-M20E]

2 hours ago, moontownMooney said:

How about an M20J kit (experimental, for home build)?

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk
 

You know this could be really good for Mooney.  Sell the roll cage, wing, and landing gear package and have a composite shell to the tail and use a more traditional empennage configuration while keeping the Money tail style somewhat like the M10 tail.

You would have engine choice form 180hp all the way up to 400 hp you could even go turbo prop if you wanted to.  Build the wing with 105 gallon tanks so you have versatility and options for the home builder.

 

 

[Parker_Woodruff]

Induction tubes, spark, then GAMIs is the order I got mine fixed up...

[johncuyle]

21 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I know there are some 231's that will run LOP in the flight levels.  Brian Lloyd flies a 231. His is fitted with an intercooler, waste gate, and GAMI's. He flew it around the world almost the whole trip at FL210.

His power settings were 31" 2450 and 10gph. He's a good one to speak with if you're trying to fly higher while keeping it all cool.

I haven't had my 231 into the flight levels, but at 16,5 it runs smooth enough LOP that I can turn the fuel all the way down to where the engine quits without it getting rough.  It has decent baffling and the GBcLB holy trinity of TurboPlus, Merlyn, and GAMIs.  Last flight I wanted to see what it'd really do on a short cross (200 miles out and back) so I buzzed up to 15,5 and ran 31" 2500 and 10.6 GPH (~70%).  I don't really plan to cruise faster than 65% but, you know, I wanted to see what it would do.  It did about 165kt.  I was giddy.  Not due to hypoxia either; I checked the pulse-ox every two minutes and it never read below 94%.

Edited December 6, 2019 by johncuyle

[INA201]

2 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I like this idea a lot. 

You could have a single kit with options for either the NA engine E20J (Experimental) or the Turbo engine E20K Encore.

Make sure both have the UL of the Encore or there about.

Mooney could just sell Firewall back kits. The builder then sources their own engine, avionics, paint, etc. They could offer a 1 month factory assist build program as well. 

I'll bet they'd be profitable and probably have to expand the work force.

I'd probably go put a deposit down on an Encore kit.

I'm in a nice J but if I could build my own with a UL possibly 300lbs more(AKA Missle GW) with the engine, ignition, avionics, interior, and paint scheme of your choice for under $200k ! Folks, its doable. 

[carusoam]

4 hours ago, n961jk said:

Why do they need 600k panels? There are many current panel options that are less expensive. A retrofit Garmin can be had for 40K. all glass and no vacuum. Why not install these at the factory as an option?

Checking in with you...

Seems to be some confusion...

I highly fitted Mooney panel can be near 100k or AMUs...

600 should be able to buy you a whole plane.

Best regards,

-a-

[Seth]

8 hours ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

Are you running Tempest Fine Wire plugs?  Switching to those from Champions brought my EGT/TIT down substantially - I guess better spark = cooler/better burn.  30" MP and 11.5 GPH will be no problem for you.

Get to 15,000 and I bet you'll see 175 on an M20K (231).  My 252/Encore would do 180 KTAS at the fuel flows you describe.

Even my Missile ran smoother and made LOP possible when I switched to Tempest fine wire from champion massive in 2018.

[Jim F]

2 hours ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

Induction tubes, spark, then GAMIs is the order I got mine fixed up...

Hi Parker,  Induction Tubes?  Is that GB to LB induction upgrade?

[MikeOH]

Hmm, if a kit J was offered it would compete with the Van's RV-10.  How do the two compare performance and load carrying wise?

Kit is $50K, and a brand new Lycoming experimental engine is just about $50K; call it $100K without paint, interior, and avionics.  Add $15K for Quick-Build.

Could a J kit be offered for the same?

[moontownMooney]

Hmm, if a kit J was offered it would compete with the Van's RV-10.  How do the two compare performance and load carrying wise?
Kit is $50K, and a brand new Lycoming experimental engine is just about $50K; call it $100K without paint, interior, and avionics.  Add $15K for Quick-Build.
Could a J kit be offered for the same?

Specswise I think the RV is similar speed to a tad slower, but has a bit more UL, but the RV has a 6 cylinder engine vs the Mooney's 4 cylinder so purchase, fuel, maintenance, and overhaul costs would be substantially less on the Mooney.

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk

[carusoam]

Hmmmm....

A kit for a J...

 

what would I select for power...

1) IO360...

2) IO390...

3) IO550...

4) TNIO550... dual turbo, MP controllers, and intercoolers....

5) Turbine....

 

When would I have to select the power plant?  So many choices to consider...

Best regards,

-a-

[moontownMooney]

With the kit approach, they can iterate the design easier with the kit (right?) and update a certified version as/when it is financially justifiable to modify the type certificate.

Also they can tap into the "guy buys a $5,000 tail kit then gives up on building halfway through" market!

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk

[toto]

The thing about a kit plane is that the build process has to be super tight -- an amateur needs to be able to put it together in 2000 hours (or, hey, 1000 hours for the quick build with some preassembly). 

Since a whole team of trained progressional aircraft builders takes 5000 hours to build a new Ultra, a kit is going to be a hard sell. I would love the hell out of a J kit, but not if it takes me 10,000 hours to assemble. 

On the other hand, if they could get the process streamlined to a point where a 2000-hour kit is a possibility, then we've got the mythical $300k J. Because then the factory could presumably do it in 1000

 

[MikeOH]

22 minutes ago, moontownMooney said:

With the kit approach, they can iterate the design easier with the kit (right?) and update a certified version as/when it is financially justifiable to modify the type certificate.

Also they can tap into the "guy buys a $5,000 tail kit then gives up on building halfway through" market!

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk
 

I've always thought that the Van's "Tail kits" are a huge moneymaker for them.  The RV-10 tail kit is a little over $4,000.  I'd bet there's $500 worth of aluminum plus whatever it costs them to stamp out the ribs.  I'll bet their margin on those is HUGE!  Forget their over 10,000 planes...good lord, I can't imagine how many tail kits have been sold compared to completed aircraft!

[INA201]

7 hours ago, toto said:

The thing about a kit plane is that the build process has to be super tight -- an amateur needs to be able to put it together in 2000 hours (or, hey, 1000 hours for the quick build with some preassembly). 

Since a whole team of trained progressional aircraft builders takes 5000 hours to build a new Ultra, a kit is going to be a hard sell. I would love the hell out of a J kit, but not if it takes me 10,000 hours to assemble. 

On the other hand, if they could get the process streamlined to a point where a 2000-hour kit is a possibility, then we've got the mythical $300k J. Because then the factory could presumably do it in 1000

 

I have a hard time believing it takes 5,000 trained man hours to complete a Mooney but I will defer.

[aviatoreb]

About two weeks ago I saw a documentary on Netflix whose exact title I forgot but it was roughly called Rosie the Riveter about the huge number of ladies who stepped in to build all sorts of equipment during WWII.  And those ladies drove lots and lots of rivets.  On airplanes.  On ships too.

I wonder how many man (woman!) hours it took to build a P51?  How about a B24?  And wow those engines were/are so very complicated.  And boy they pumped out lots of airplanes. And other stuff.

Edited December 6, 2019 by aviatoreb

[toto]

7 minutes ago, INA201 said:

I have a hard time believing it takes 5,000 trained man hours to complete a Mooney but I will defer.

It seems preposterous to me, too, but that's the number that's been kicked around on MS. 

[MIm20c]

A 700k J would probably be one of the worst investments out there. The frugal used Mooney buyers would bash the used value down to 50% after the first few years.  Could be an eye opening $70k worth of depreciation per year for that proud new owner. Meanwhile we’re sitting here worrying about how much fuel it burns...

[steingar]

If Mooney could get the build time for a J down to 2000 hours they'd be very competitive in the marketplace.  That'd drive the price of it down by half if not more.  It would become the lease expensive complex single on the market, and still outrun most of the others.

But it isn't going to happen.  More fantasy.  Vans were designed to be built by amateurs in a garage.  Mooneys were designed to be built by skilled craftsmen in factories.

[flyboy0681]

27 minutes ago, steingar said:

If Mooney could get the build time for a J down to 2000 hours they'd be very competitive in the marketplace.  That'd drive the price of it down by half if not more.  It would become the lease expensive complex single on the market, and still outrun most of the others.

But it isn't going to happen.  More fantasy.  Vans were designed to be built by amateurs in a garage.  Mooneys were designed to be built by skilled craftsmen in factories.

And if the Queen had... well, you know what I mean.

[Parker_Woodruff]

11 hours ago, Jim F said:

Hi Parker,  Induction Tubes?  Is that GB to LB induction upgrade?

The induction system had leaks and I believe the original tubes (Which were starting to crack) could be replaced with more robust parts from Continental.

Ishould just say “get your induction cleaned up then chase the spark and fuel balance”

[Bryan]

Every phase of flight, including starting, were 10x better with FineWire plugs.  I have a factory Encore (1998) and took this path to a clean & cool running LOP machine:

• upgraded the engine monitor (from factory EDM 700, to an EDM 830 - so I can see %HP)
• Tempest FineWire plugs
• GAMI injectors + a day of tuning them with JonPaul in Ada, OK
• CiES senders to measure super-accurate fuel levels
• Upgraded the EDM 830 to an EDM 930 (pulling out all old/heavy analog gauges)

The problem with purchasing a new plane from the factory is that they made their "vintage" M20's so well that you can buy a really good airframe and make it new yourself. 

Mine has new 3rd generation avionics (that was upgradeable without Mooney), new (latest) engine management, new paint, really nice interior, and a mid-time engine for about $250k investment.  The only thing left to do to make my factory Encore (with 1100# UL) "new" is a digital GFC autopilot.  Currently it is hard to justify ripping out the KFC 150 with alt-preselect, yaw damp, and vacuum-less commanding the system via the Garmin GAD 43e to put in the GFC system.  It is on my list and will be done at one hint of a hiccup with the KFC system.

Edited December 6, 2019 by Bryan

[bradp]

A J with a diesel up front would be cool. 
I’d definitely be interested in a kit built Mooney.  
it could also be a proving ground for innovation for the factory TC airframe