At first annual, have found illegal engine modifications

[hmasing]

2 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

I mean did you remove the crankshaft and have it checked for cracks. Inspecting the bolts and the lock plate is the bare minimum. Insurance companies will usually always pay for a complete tear down and inspection. It’s always a good idea with a prop strike

Yes, full tear down and inspection of the crank.

[steingar]

You should turn that into an overhaul for a bunch of reasons.  First, you don't know what the guy did before, and according to the evidence you're seeing he didn't do it correctly.  You have the opportunity remediate that.  I know it sucks since you bought it with a "fresh" engine, but the overhaul will  cost you less at this point than down the road.  Your insurer is already paying for removal and disassembly, now's the time to overhaul.  Do it, and your worry turns from "what's wrong with my engine" to "how do I break in a new engine correctly".  Seems like seriously inexpensive piece of mind to me.

Edited July 31, 2019 by steingar

[jaylw314]

25 minutes ago, steingar said:

You should turn that into an overhaul for a bunch of reasons.  First, you don't know what the guy did before, and according to the evidence you're seeing he didn't do it correctly.  You have the opportunity remediate that.  I know it sucks since you bought it with a "fresh" engine, but the overhaul will  cost you less at this point than down the road.  Your insurer is already paying for removal and disassembly, now's the time to overhaul.  Do it, and your worry turns from "what's wrong with my engine" to "how do I break in a new engine correctly".  Seems like seriously inexpensive piece of mind to me.

What would be the cost range for overhauling an IO-360 if the R&R and opening the crankcase is covered by insurance?

[Yetti]

49 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

It's not being pedantic. It's an important distinction that many people do not understand. 

Here's Pedantic for you.   The thread title is misleading along with the pictures.   The fuel line from NAPA is part of the airframe.   Not the Engine.    So the title of the thread should read "Illegal Airframe Modifications"   

[RLCarter]

Its not uncommon to find the wrong / missing hardware and automotive parts on older planes. Pre-buys don't catch everything and even less when the plane is leaving the area and there's little chance it will be coming back. You are not the first to find issues on your 1st annual after the purchase and unfortunately you wont be the last, during my M20E pre-buy I found dry-wall screws holding some of the interior together, while cleaning up the engine bay and baffling on the 172 I fly there was a 5/8" x 3" piece of garden hose on the engine breather line that had been through (6) annuals and at least (12) 100 inspections. It sounds like your A&P is looking things over a little closer than the ones before him and is going to straighten it out...... Interested in knowing what rubber line the photo goes to.

[Steve W]

8 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

What would be the cost range for overhauling an IO-360 if the R&R and opening the crankcase is covered by insurance?

Mine was about +22k(excluding any costs due to the auto accident post-overhaul), at a reputable but expensive shop. Doing it as a field overhaul would probably have been much cheaper.

 

[jaylw314]

2 minutes ago, Steve W said:

Mine was about +22k(excluding any costs due to the auto accident post-overhaul), at a reputable but expensive shop. Doing it as a field overhaul would probably have been much cheaper.

 

I wish you didn't know that from personal experience, man...

[Steve W]

Just now, jaylw314 said:

I wish you didn't know that from personal experience, man...

In hindsight, ignoring the auto accident, if I had suspected any other problems with the engine I would have been better off sending it as a core for a factory reman, but alas the other issues making an overhaul the best solution were found after it was all opened up for the prop strike and not really usable as a core.

 

[bonal]

You certainly are going all in on making things right. My first annual came to 50% the value of the airplane. I wouldn't expect anything from the previous owner or the AP. It's your baby now so move forward and enjoy your new and better Mooney. 

[PT20J]

Sorry about the auto accident. I worried about shipping when I bought a Lycoming rebuilt. Lycoming only ships FOB their loading dock, which means when it leaves on the truck, I own it. The insurance included doesn’t nearly cover the value of the engine and I could not find a reasonable way to purchase additional insurance. It got to me OK, but I lost a little sleep over it. 

Skip

[jaylw314]

12 minutes ago, Steve W said:

In hindsight, ignoring the auto accident, if I had suspected any other problems with the engine I would have been better off sending it as a core for a factory reman, but alas the other issues making an overhaul the best solution were found after it was all opened up for the prop strike and not really usable as a core.

 

Ah, I hadn't realized it had lost some core value, so the $22k is on the high end of the cost range? (not to rub it in or anything...)

[steingar]

39 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

What would be the cost range for overhauling an IO-360 if the R&R and opening the crankcase is covered by insurance?

I was quoted about $10K a few year back.  Had I not been so strapped for cash I'd have done it too, and I've been sorry ever since that I didn't.

[Shadrach]

43 minutes ago, Yetti said:

Here's Pedantic for you.   The thread title is misleading along with the pictures.   The fuel line from NAPA is part of the airframe.   Not the Engine.    So the title of the thread should read "Illegal Airframe Modifications"   

Tell me about it, I came here expecting to find high compression pistons, a cold air intake and a fart can muffler....

[Steve W]

18 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

Ah, I hadn't realized it had lost some core value, so the $22k is on the high end of the cost range? (not to rub it in or anything...)

It only lost core value in the sense that Lycoming's core is required to be servicable, after the engine shop opened it up and turned it into a pile of parts then I could no longer use it as a core(or at least not for the full value) If I had simply had it removed post prop strike and shipped directly to Lycoming it almost certainly would have qualified for the full core.

The engine shop charged a flat rate for the overhaul and would have charged a flat rate for the prop strike inspection per the Lycoming AD/SB. If additional parts had been found broken due to the prop strike that would have been above the inspection charge. So, at the end of the day I was out the $22k additional from the base prop strike inspection charge(that insurance paid) since there wasn't actually any parts damage attributable to the prop strike.

I made it an overhaul because when they did the tear down they found problems with the crank to case interface location not due to the prop strike(apparently not actually a thrust bearing, but where you'd think a thrust bearing would be), so they sent that out to Divco and whoever does cranks. That came back and they found cylinder and oil pump scoring due to a previous(pre ownership) cam failure which was obviously not due to the prop strike. At which point it made more sense to bump it to an overhaul since we were within striking distance on what they already had to do.

 

 

[Yetti]

15 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Tell me about it, I came here expecting to find high compression pistons, a cold air intake and a fart can muffler....

Yes I was suckered in thinking turbo and supercharger with a holley EFI

[bonal]

How about some zoomi pipes out the side cowling 

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, Steve W said:

It only lost core value in the sense that Lycoming's core is required to be servicable, after the engine shop opened it up and turned it into a pile of parts then I could no longer use it as a core(or at least not for the full value) If I had simply had it removed post prop strike and shipped directly to Lycoming it almost certainly would have qualified for the full core.

The engine shop charged a flat rate for the overhaul and would have charged a flat rate for the prop strike inspection per the Lycoming AD/SB. If additional parts had been found broken due to the prop strike that would have been above the inspection charge. So, at the end of the day I was out the $22k additional from the base prop strike inspection charge(that insurance paid) since there wasn't actually any parts damage attributable to the prop strike.

I made it an overhaul because when they did the tear down they found problems with the crank to case interface location not due to the prop strike(apparently not actually a thrust bearing, but where you'd think a thrust bearing would be), so they sent that out to Divco and whoever does cranks. That came back and they found cylinder and oil pump scoring due to a previous(pre ownership) cam failure which was obviously not due to the prop strike. At which point it made more sense to bump it to an overhaul since we were within striking distance on what they already had to do.

So it sounds like the range if insurance pays for a teardown might be between $10k on the low side and $25k on the high side?

Sorry, I'm really not trying to rub it in...

[Steve W]

3 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

So it sounds like the range if insurance pays for a teardown might be between $10k on the low side and $25k on the high side?

Sorry, I'm really not trying to rub it in...

Probably true. If the crankshaft had been damaged by the prop strike instead or if the case had taken damage from the prop strike then the insurance would have covered those items. The  good news is that insurance did cover the 500 hour inspection that was almost due on the dual-mags(since that's one of the items on the Lycoming SB/AD).

 

[FloridaMan]

Every A&P will spot things other A&Ps did that they may not like. Don’t get taken for a ride by this guy that’s inspecting your airplane, especially if this is your first plane. Those brackets on the governors for early Mooneys look like they’re hand-made out of Lowe’s angle bracket. 

There is a chance the guy who’s looking it over is not exceptionally familiar with Mooneys. You never mentioned who did your PPI, but if it was Phil, I’d trust his opinion over most MSCs. He’s good and he’s the one doing the work. 

[RobertGary1]

13 hours ago, jetdriven said:

the hard oil line for the governor comes from Lycoming and its expensive,  I think around 600-800$. 

Lycoming has a SB describing how to replace it with a flex line. 

-Robert 

[carusoam]

Holy cow... I was trying to put together a summary...

It takes three pages to find most of the story...

1) The title needs to be updated to match the reality...

2) The backstory of the prop strike would have been helpful early on...

3) The pics that cover a different hose only confuse things...

4) If There are videos, I can’t see them... Something is marking their place, just not sharing it...

5) Were we thinking of a law suit, outing the previous owner, complaining about the PPI, or just getting down to business of what needs to be done to move forwards...?

 

Around MS... the more accurate the details in the OP... the better the quality of responses is...

 

If unable to give good details... that’s a challenge to deal with...

If not giving good details for a different reason... try to move past that approach...

 

What’s next...?

Best I can tell, the OP has 10s of AMUs sunk into the project for R&R, OH, and prop...

And the only thing for sure is an improper hose that didn’t get a pic...

Sorry, I must have missed something in the middle...

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

[jkarch]

15 hours ago, jetdriven said:

the hard oil line for the governor comes from Lycoming and its expensive,  I think around 600-800$. 

 Air Power actually had the best price for oil lines for the prop governor. I was quoted 6-700 from most places but under 500 from air power 

Edited August 1, 2019 by jkarch

[jkarch]

13 hours ago, hmasing said:

The pre-buy was remote (the aircraft was in Florida, I am in Michigan).  I will be having a frank conversation with him as well.

We will see how the engine looks after we make it legal.  Compressions were all 79 at the start of annual a couple weeks ago, and I just did an accessory housing teardown and inspection, as well as a borescope.  So I am optimistic that the engine will give me lots of time, it's the stuff on the engine that has been hacked to fail.

I’m a bit concerned about Florida planes and engines from a corrosion perspective, especially Cam corrosion. You might want to check filter for metal and also do oil analysis to see corrosion status

[MIm20c]

Fix the plane to the best of your ability and move on. Many new adventures await and you will sleep better knowing everything looks healthy under the hood. 

Learning from this experience...is your current mechanic/shop fully insured? 

[Yetti]

@carusoamThe Napa fuel line looks to be the one from the gas collator hard line to the intake of the mechanical fuel pump.   The solenoid in the pic is the starter solenoid that sits on the pilot foot well.   The Napa Fuel line would be rated to 12 PSI or so.   Since we know the elect fuel pump puts out 30 PSI  there is a big risk of fuel being in places where it should not be.