Story - Near Midair with same Cirrus TWICE

[201er]

1 hour ago, irishpilot said:

everyone, let's keep this discussion focused. 

@201er, I appreciate your thread start, but for the Safety forum, please do not post links to personal blog/vlogs unless they have safety-focused content.

Oh I’m sorry, I thought this was the politics section...

[Shadrach]

4 hours ago, irishpilot said:

everyone, let's keep this discussion focused. 

@201er, I appreciate your thread start, but for the Safety forum, please do not post links to personal blog/vlogs unless they have safety-focused content. For general commenting, I recommend the general forum. However, your post is leading to discussion relating to GA uncontrolled patterns and what is considered procedure vs preference, which is good. 

For everyone, please refrain from generalizing types of pilots by the plane they fly. For example, "all Cirrus or all Mooney pilots do....". 

Also, one more tip when talking safety - emotions do not help. Discussion needs to be objective with arguments backed by CFRs, AD, SD, NTSB, or other published guidelines or procedures. I know this is sometimes difficult when you are personally involved in a near mis, or other safety incident. 

Thanks for reading and stay safe!

I’m sorry if I missed the announcement but I did not know there was a new sheriff in town. If you’ve been made a moderator, please list it in your signature so folks understand that you have the authority to tell them where to post, what to post, what they can link and what they should refrain from. If you haven’t been made a moderator, your post comes off as a tad bossy.

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

I’m sorry if I missed the announcement but I did not know there was a new sheriff in town. If you’ve been made a moderator, please list it in your signature so folks understand that you have the authority to tell them where to post, what to post, what they can link and what they should refrain from. If you haven’t been made a moderator, your post comes off as a tad bossy.

Start here:
 

 

[Shadrach]

5 hours ago, EricJ said:

Start here:
 

 

Thanks Eric and apologies to @irishpilot I was not aware of the changes or even that a new section had been formalized. I typically scan the “unread” posts with little attention given to what section they are posted. Clarification appreciated.

[irishpilot]

Oh I’m sorry, I thought this was the politics section...

No worries, this is a brand new section of the forum.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[irishpilot]

I’m sorry if I missed the announcement but I did not know there was a new sheriff in town. If you’ve been made a moderator, please list it in your signature so folks understand that you have the authority to tell them where to post, what to post, what they can link and what they should refrain from. If you haven’t been made a moderator, your post comes off as a tad bossy.

@Shadrach, I posted the announcement very recently. I'll make it a sticky as the Safety ROEs are to follow shortly.

 

Thanks for the signature recommendation. I am the moderator for the Safety section only. I'm here to help facilitate discussion we can all learn from. I'm always open to suggestions and topics for this section.

 

Fly Safe,

Safety Forum Mod

 

 

 

[RogueOne]

On 7/4/2019 at 2:02 PM, pinerunner said:

Keep in mind that at an uncontrolled airport there's no requirement to have and use a radio. Of course you should and should learn to do it as professionally as possible but you still need to be vigilant and on the lookout for the user who shows up without a radio or just doesn't know how to use it. We don't have a moral high ground over the Piper Cub. 

Entering the pattern behind you and then turning an early base to cut you off does earn him an even stronger epiphet than jerk in my book though. 

I learned that (look out for NORDO individuals sharing airspace) on a trip to Arkansas.  Nothing in NOTAMS, but upon arrival after a 2.5 hour cross country to Arkansas, I realized that there were 15-20 ultralights literally everywhere on the field.  They were in grass on both sides of runway with humans of all shapes and sizes moving about.  While taxing to tie down a young boy approached from front at a high pace in pursuit of his “buddy”.  An adult (that may or may not have been wearing camo) emerged to grab him a second before I grabbed mixture...Vigilance is your friend in the air and on the ground.

 

[RogueOne]

I appreciate your video.  I am glad you yielded Mike.  I would not of called the guy out in the air, but 100% would of searched out and had a conversation on the ground.  I would also have wanted to know if he had others on board.  My follow through with the “owner”/club/airport on who was flying and what they did with the airplane would of been largely influenced by the pilots actions when we had a conversation.  I understand your emotion with the turning of base unannounced inside of you.  Maybe only lesson learned for you would be to have the conversation once safely on the ground vs. in the air.  I call out my entry to pattern and finish with my intention to land on ___runway at ___airport.  Glad you are safe.

[201er]

Speaking of ratting a renter out to owners... one time it happened to me when I was renting a piper arrow before getting my Mooney. Someone contacted the flight school owner that they were very concerned about my poor airmanship and such. The owner called me in to have a “talk” with me. After a bunch of confusion back and forth, he thought it was a message from my passenger, and I had no idea who it was from. We finally realized it was just a YouTube viewer who watched one of my posted videos and was playing Monday quarterback. The owner hadn’t even seen the video but after he did, even he was no longer concerned.

Not saying it in any way resembles the Cirrus situation but just a story it reminded me of and one of the reasons I would hesitate to contact a flight school. When it comes to the Cirrus, I was actually very tempted to grab my phone and video proof of how close he was coming and the cut off on base, but I deliberately resisted that urge in order to focus on dealing with the unpredictable imposer. I flashed the thought how I’d be no different than the “Cirrus hero” who was chasing the Arrow to the ground just to get hits on a video! So I resisted the urge to get any footage and focused on safety instead. And that was the right thing to do as he later cut me off on base.

[Browncbr1]

I’ve been cut off like that by RVs and Cessnas.   The cirrus is usually not in the pattern.  Around here it seems like they are always on long final.   Do your belly checks guys!

[bradp]

My worst experience was a guy up in Pittsburgh with a T-34. I am making usual radio calls and guy is low level over the trees on an overhead pattern.  I can’t see.  He doesn’t talk.   I pull out onto the runway and am putting in throttle and I get buzzed by the Mentor.  The dude makes his first radio call after I aborted my takeoff and tells me don’t worry he’s seen me all along.  So he was on the radio all along.  Almost worse than not having seen or heard...

Maybe we can all agree that the Mentor pilots are the most obnoxious out there.  :-p.  

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, bradp said:

My worst experience was a guy up in Pittsburgh with a T-34. I am making usual radio calls and guy is low level over the trees on an overhead pattern.  I can’t see.  He doesn’t talk.   I pull out onto the runway and am putting in throttle and I get buzzed by the Mentor.  The dude makes his first radio call after I aborted my takeoff and tells me don’t worry he’s seen me all along.  So he was on the radio all along.  Almost worse than not having seen or heard...

Maybe we can all agree that the Mentor pilots are the most obnoxious out there.  :-p.  

My anecdotal observation is that the "baby" cabin class Cessna twins are the worst.  I think they are wonderful birds but more than a few times I've encountered some really obnoxious pattern (or lack there of) behavior. Maybe it's the fuel burn that drives their urgency to land on the runway that is most convenient to a straight in approach from their heading...everyone else be damned.  I actually had a C340 instruct me to extend my downwind to the in use runway so he could do a straight in to the cross runway. He prefaced the instruction with "We're making 180kts across the ground".  My reply was appropriate...but I let him land first.

[bradp]

Ross my previous post in this thread was a time that I got cut off by a C340 *below me* in the pattern. Maybe the anecdotes are aligning. 

[chrisk]

On 7/5/2019 at 3:53 PM, PTK said:

 

Another detail that has not been discussed is that of pattern entry in an uncontrolled field. There are guidelines whose purpose is separation. But they have to be followed. It appears the op did not adhere to any of the guidelines. The preferred pattern entry to an uncontrolled field is midfield on a 45. Aircraft entering by the alternative direct method are advised to yield to those on 45. In both cases entry should be midfield. The cirrus entered on a 45 but the Mooney didn’t. He entered unannounced straight into dw. Not even midfield. It is conceivable and entirely possible the Cirrus pilot was expecting the Mooney to also be entering on a 45 and behind him. This would have provided plenty of separation.

I agree the op’s self-aggrandizing video doesn’t help his case and should not be on a public forum.

Not trying to stir the pot, but just curious how one would enter "straight into midfield downwind"?

[Seth]

Mike-

Just read this / saw the video.  I fly one painted the same but with a different N number at Open Air so . . . It was not me!!  Besides, I’d have made 10 radio calls by that point.

Good job handling the situation and simply going around.

 

-Seth

[PTK]

On 7/13/2019 at 10:58 AM, chrisk said:

Not trying to stir the pot, but just curious how one would enter "straight into midfield downwind"?

See AC 90-66B.

[steingar]

On 7/13/2019 at 10:58 AM, chrisk said:

Not trying to stir the pot, but just curious how one would enter "straight into midfield downwind"?

I imagine you're already on course for the downwind, so instead of entering on the 45 you just fly the downwind.

[EricJ]

32 minutes ago, steingar said:

I imagine you're already on course for the downwind, so instead of entering on the 45 you just fly the downwind.

I think to some that may be as distasteful as flying straight-in to final.    I do both if traffic permits.   FWIW.   Maybe I'm just a bad person. 

[chrisk]

On 7/16/2019 at 2:47 PM, PTK said:

See AC 90-66B.

AC90-66B is a good document and provides recommendations, but it really fails to recognize what happens at most US airports.     Transport Canada  has a good doc on the realities of what I see at most airports.  https://www.tc.gc.ca/en/services/aviation/documents/TP11541E-Accessible_VFR_procedures_at_uncontrolled_aerodromes_EN.pdf

Its common to see straight in final and down wind entry.  Is less common to see a base entry, but its still seen often.  And rarer yet is the upwind pattern entry

 

 

[PTK]

52 minutes ago, chrisk said:

AC90-66B is a good document and provides recommendations, but it really fails to recognize what happens at most US airports.

The document is there to help. It's up to us to follow the recommendations. What happens is that pilots, like the op, fail to recognize and follow the recommendations which are there to help provide separation. Then when a close call or worse occurs some of these pilots blame the other guy! As the op is doing here.

[irishpilot]

I'm closing this thread as it was originally posted incorrectly in the Safety section.

As a reminder to all, this section is a sanctuary so we can collectively analyze safety issues that we face as Mooney pilots. Feelings, emotional responses, vauge guesses, etc. do not help determine root causes. NTSB reports, safety bulletins, FAA advisories, etc. are to be used as source documentation during analysis.

Thank you for helping be part of the Safety conversation and if you have questions, please send them my way. It takes all of us working diligently to increase awareness of safety issues in GA

Fly Safe,
Safety Forum Mod