231

[Pete M]

So, it appears I'm headed to Colorado to teach at the air force's initial flight training center in Pueblo and as such I'm going to need another airplane. Given the altitudes involved and the fact that I'm going to be flying it between CO and FL once or twice a month I'm thinking 231. What kind of numbers are you guys seeing in your real world flying? The flight review on mapa cites 180KTAS at optimum altitudes but I imagine that's optimistic. I'd prefer not to replace cylinders every 500 hours. Late model or early model? I could go short body for half the cost but that extra 20 knots and possibly greater range is very appealing.

     I'm a cfi so I'm also planning to teach instrument and commercial in it a few hours a week to offset the costs. Anyone added brakes to the right side?

[N201MKTurbo]

If you are flying between Florida and Pueblo CO. You don’t necessarily need high altitude performance.

[Pete M]

Well, I'd like the option of flying the other way if I get the urge:) Nice tailwinds up high going east too.

[N231BN]

Get the nicest K you can afford. A 252 is worth the extra money but a well-cared-for 231 is still a good airplane.

[carusoam]

Pete,

Time to add some detail to your avatar... a little more about you will get better answers for you... especially as this thread grows longer over days...

 

Some pro teachers really love their turbo Mooneys...

There aren’t any bad turbo Mooneys... So we are talking more about your personal finance needs...

Around here turbo-normalized Cs and Fs can be found... the lower end of the K family may not have updated MP controllers or inter-coolers...more skill required by the operator...

The higher end will be 252s and Rockets... then on to Bravos.... and Acclaims...

 

Find a bird with all the attributes you want... especially the instrument panel...

 

Take a look at All American Aircraft... they write really good descriptions for their Mooneys for sale... makes great comparisons...

Brakes can be added to the right side... but, if you are only teaching IR students... they pretty much have mastered the braking by now....  

Congrats on your next steps...

Best regards,

-a-

[jrwilson]

Real numbers/12.7 gph

12500 - 172kt

15000 - 175

18000 - 178

21000 - 180

climb rates:

above 12000 ~ 600 fpm

231s are great planes.  Get one with an inter cooler 

[Jeev]

If I ever get another Mooney it’s going to be a 252, I think it’s the best option.  More performance than a 231 with a better engine set up, about the same performance as the newer turbo models  for less $$ money. 

Check this one out, I know the aircraft and it’s a good one: 

 

[231LV]

I love my 231...owned and flown it for 16 years....that said, IF I have the money, the 252 is the way to go....slightly more refined than the 231 with the MB engine and fully automatic waste gate plus some additional aerodynamic tweaks. All that comes with a price .... if you take the same equipped  and similar conditioned 231and 252, the last time I looked there was a $50k price difference. The 231 is a good airplane  and some can be had for a really good price. I originally owned a C model and after moving to the K, I realized the two planes exist on different levels of capabilities. Whether a 231 or 252, either will be an excellent plane...btw, I fly LOP and usually see 170KTAS up high at around 9.5 gph with the hottest CHT at around 360 degrees. Obviously, if I want to go fast, I fly full rich burning around 13 to 14 gph.

[Pete M]

Financially speaking,  I couldn't justify the added cost of a 252. A merlyn and an intercooler makes sense. What's the fuel capacity? Are later 231's any faster than earlier ones?  What changed on the model over the years?  My understanding is that most or all flying 231's should have the LB engine at this point. I'm really interested in a basic 231. I don't need lots of glass and all that. A couple of good radios and a working auto pilot is all I'm really interested in. I'll probably throw a G5 or two into it if it doesn't have an hsi. I have to check the instrument pts to see if I need an ifr certified gps for check rides. I actually don't mind having to do paint and interior. I kind of like making the plane my own in that regard. Do the 231's use a newer tank sealant that lasts any longer than the short body's or should I insist on a complete tank reseal be in the logs? 

[anthonydesmet]

If you can find a 262 it’s a nice package as well.  252 firewall forward for 252 performance with a 231 body. You get all the nice options in the TSIO-360MB that the 252 owners have and don’t have to look for later add on intercooler and auto waste gate plus an adjustable cowl flap. I fly at 12.5gph, CHT,s 340-360 and see

8-10k - 170-177 it’s

12.5 - 180 kts 

15.0 - 185 kts

FL 180 - 188+

Im with you also - it’s nice to climb and grab 30/40/60 knot tail wind and also be able to stay at 8K +/- out of the wind and fly at 170 kts.  Where in Florida are you?  I am stationed at X35

 

[Pete M]

49 minutes ago, anthonydesmet said:

If you can find a 262 it’s a nice package as well.  252 firewall forward for 252 performance with a 231 body. You get all the nice options in the TSIO-360MB that the 252 owners have and don’t have to look for later add on intercooler and auto waste gate plus an adjustable cowl flap. I fly at 12.5gph, CHT,s 340-360 and see

8-10k - 170-177 it’s

12.5 - 180 kts 

15.0 - 185 kts

FL 180 - 188+

Im with you also - it’s nice to climb and grab 30/40/60 knot tail wind and also be able to stay at 8K +/- out of the wind and fly at 170 kts.  Where in Florida are you?  I am stationed at X35

 

I'm at stuart ksua right now. I'm in Gainesville on weekends. I did some training in Ocala and was based at Williston for awhile. You're flying a 262? That 188 at fl 180 sounds interesting:) 

[Pete M]

Oh, I forgot to ask, what's crit alt on a 231?

[231LV]

29 minutes ago, Pete M said:

Financially speaking,  I couldn't justify the added cost of a 252. A merlyn and an intercooler makes sense. What's the fuel capacity? Are later 231's any faster than earlier ones?  What changed on the model over the years?  My understanding is that most or all flying 231's should have the LB engine at this point. I'm really interested in a basic 231. I don't need lots of glass and all that. A couple of good radios and a working auto pilot is all I'm really interested in. I'll probably throw a G5 or two into it if it doesn't have an hsi. I have to check the instrument pts to see if I need an ifr certified gps for check rides. I actually don't mind having to do paint and interior. I kind of like making the plane my own in that regard. Do the 231's use a newer tank sealant that lasts any longer than the short body's or should I insist on a complete tank reseal be in the logs? 

The 231's are all the same body and generally, weight and mostly the same speed..and most have the LB conversion(I just did mine). I sealed my tanks 10 years ago using the folks at Wilmar....still going strong.....they are all 72 gal unless they have the Monroy bladders....look for one with an intercooler....a Merlyn would be a plus...all 231's came standard with an HSI IIRC...most of the significant changes had to do with the engine which culminated with the LB.

[anthonydesmet]

8 minutes ago, Pete M said:

Oh, I forgot to ask, what's crit alt on a 231?

240 is critical.  The highest I have been is 180 to 190 and I spend most of my time between 12K to 16K.  

[carusoam]

The 262 has all the goods... the only thing it didn’t get was the 24V electrical system of more modern planes...

Keep an eye on the UL while searching for Ks... the K was the top of the line model.... it got loaded up with many modern devices of its day....

If you are considering hauling four people, your fuel load may need some consideration... 72gallons is a lot of extra fuel...

Check the IP for a good engine monitor... you will want one.

Best regards,

-a-

[Pritch]

2 hours ago, Pete M said:

Oh, I forgot to ask, what's crit alt on a 231?

Critical Alt is 19,000, if equipped with intercooler and Merlyn waste gate.  The 231's top alt is 24,000. Later models are equipped with O2. Speed and fuel flow depends upon whether you fly LOP or ROP.

 

[N201MKTurbo]

So, the 231 is a fine airplane. My current Mooney has a turbo and I like having it. But, I did the bulk of my flying 30 years ago out of Denver with a normally asperated  M20F. 

If you are flying over the Rocks a turbo is great. You can fly over in the flight levels and be above most of the mountain waves and mountain tops. But if you are flying to one of the front range cities like Pueblo, from the west, you have to start your decent so you cross the Rocks at peak level or through the passes or else you will be spinning in circles for 20 minuets or so to get down. This puts you at the same altitudes as a NA Mooney. 

Of all the flights I canceled into the Rocks, I can’t think of any that a turbo would have allowed me to make.

At the time I was making 2 to 3 trips a week over the Rocks for about 5 years. I was flying about 500 hours a year.

[gsxrpilot]

I'm moving to Denver with my 252 in a couple of weeks. I'll be based at BJC. I know you're looking for a 231 but I'd be happy to give you a ride in my 252 and talk about how these planes operate in the flight levels. The ceiling for the 252 is FL280 although I've only had mine to FL260. But I've been up there quite a few times. 

I spent a lot of time looking at 231's as well before finding my 252. I'd be happy to take you up in the M20K and talk Mooneys once you get to Colorado.

On another note, Brian Lloyd who doesn't come around this forum much anymore, flew his 231 around the world. And he regularly flies it non-stop between San Antonio and San Diego. So if you want to talk about extreme range in a 231, he's the guy to talk with. 

I was listening to LiveATC as he was between Hilo and Oakland. An AA jet on the descent into SFO was told to stop his descent as he was overtaking a Mooney at FL210. The AA pilot acknowledged and then a minute later, came back on and said, "A Mooney!? What's a Mooney doing out here 200 miles off shore? And at this altitude?" Brian came on the radio and said he was the Mooney just coming in from Hawaii and finishing a full circumnavigation of the globe. 

The 231 is a fine airplane and can be made to have some unreal range. Of course the 252 is just a little bit better.

[irishpilot]

Congrats on the IFT gig. I did my checkride at KPUB in 1999. I'm doing the Pilot Training Next gig at Randolph and a lot of our casual Lts are heading to IFT shortly.

You're getting great advice thus far. I loved my M20E. Shorter range than you are looking for. For commuting, I recommend you get the plane that allow you to fly the heart highest and farthest can. Routinely get into a fight levels going east and fly lowest headwind alt going west. Turbos are great, especially when DA gets high (you'll see DA above 10k in the summer), but mx costs are higher.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[Pete M]

1 hour ago, irishpilot said:

Congrats on the IFT gig. I did my checkride at KPUB in 1999. I'm doing the Pilot Training Next gig at Randolph and a lot of our casual Lts are heading to IFT shortly.

You're getting great advice thus far. I loved my M20E. Shorter range than you are looking for. For commuting, I recommend you get the plane that allow you to fly the heart highest and farthest can. Routinely get into a fight levels going east and fly lowest headwind alt going west. Turbos are great, especially when DA gets high (you'll see DA above 10k in the summer), but mx costs are higher.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
 

I'm retired AF...bout half active, half guard...pilot next? You're teaching at UPT? Not sure what a casual LT is:) LT's are usually pretty uptight:) Guess your talking about your lt's waiting on a class date? Your avatar says irish pilot...that literal?...non u.s.? I had a 64 E for.bout 7 years...fast little sucker but I think I'm gonna need just a little more airplane this go around.

[Pete M]

7 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I'm moving to Denver with my 252 in a couple of weeks. I'll be based at BJC. I know you're looking for a 231 but I'd be happy to give you a ride in my 252 and talk about how these planes operate in the flight levels. The ceiling for the 252 is FL280 although I've only had mine to FL260. But I've been up there quite a few times. 

I spent a lot of time looking at 231's as well before finding my 252. I'd be happy to take you up in the M20K and talk Mooneys once you get to Colorado.

On another note, Brian Lloyd who doesn't come around this forum much anymore, flew his 231 around the world. And he regularly flies it non-stop between San Antonio and San Diego. So if you want to talk about extreme range in a 231, he's the guy to talk with. 

I was listening to LiveATC as he was between Hilo and Oakland. An AA jet on the descent into SFO was told to stop his descent as he was overtaking a Mooney at FL210. The AA pilot acknowledged and then a minute later, came back on and said, "A Mooney!? What's a Mooney doing out here 200 miles off shore? And at this altitude?" Brian came on the radio and said he was the Mooney just coming in from Hawaii and finishing a full circumnavigation of the globe. 

The 231 is a fine airplane and can be made to have some unreal range. Of course the 252 is just a little bit better.

Thanks, will hit you up when I get there:) 

[Pete M]

8 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

So, the 231 is a fine airplane. My current Mooney has a turbo and I like having it. But, I did the bulk of my flying 30 years ago out of Denver with a normally asperated  M20F. 

If you are flying over the Rocks a turbo is great. You can fly over in the flight levels and be above most of the mountain waves and mountain tops. But if you are flying to one of the front range cities like Pueblo, from the west, you have to start your decent so you cross the Rocks at peak level or through the passes or else you will be spinning in circles for 20 minuets or so to get down. This puts you at the same altitudes as a NA Mooney. 

Of all the flights I canceled into the Rocks, I can’t think of any that a turbo would have allowed me to make.

At the time I was making 2 to 3 trips a week over the Rocks for about 5 years. I was flying about 500 hours a year.

Mostly, I want the turbo for the added speed. It'll shave about an hour off my trips to Fl and with the winds up high even more. The added range might even get me there in one hop depending on winds. Going back, well, gonna need a fuel stop and will take longer but even then will be a shorter trip than the E. 

[231LV]

8 minutes ago, Pete M said:

Mostly, I want the turbo for the added speed. It'll shave about an hour off my trips to Fl and with the winds up high even more. The added range might even get me there in one hop depending on winds. Going back, well, gonna need a fuel stop and will take longer but even then will be a shorter trip than the E. 

You are likely going to need a couple fuel stops heading west (i did flying Houston/San Francisco) and one heading east with favorable tailwinds...depending upon where in FL you are based....agree.....faster than the E model

[N201MKTurbo]

3 hours ago, Pete M said:

Mostly, I want the turbo for the added speed. It'll shave about an hour off my trips to Fl and with the winds up high even more. The added range might even get me there in one hop depending on winds. Going back, well, gonna need a fuel stop and will take longer but even then will be a shorter trip than the E. 

If it is just you and you don't care about the cost of fuel, get a Rocket 231. 

Zooming along with the big winds up high is great, but where speed really counts is slogging into a fierce head wind. Which you will do often on that route.

[Pete M]

8 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

If it is just you and you don't care about the cost of fuel, get a Rocket 231. 

Zooming along with the big winds up high is great, but where speed really counts is slogging into a fierce head wind. Which you will do often on that route.

I'd love a Rocket...or a 252...buuuuuttttt.....there's that big, fat check up front:) Plus the fuel flow would offend my CB sensibilities:)