O-360-A1D Replace Cylinders or ????

[Stephen Skinner]

I am trying to decide what I should do with my motor and asking for suggestions from the group.

While doing a compression test the #4 cylinder measured near 0. We checked the exhaust valve guide and bore scoped the cylinder.  We determined the valve guides were worn to the limits and a small crack close to the lower spark plug hole and a stuck compression ring. We decided to check the exhaust valves and bore scope the other three cylinders and found all exhaust valve guides were all worn beyond limits and one other cylinder had a crack. (Compression for the other 3 ranged #1 72, #2 76, #3 78/80)

My O-360-A1D has 2,200 Hours SMOH and the cylinders could be that old except for rings have been replaced once or twice.  The bottom end was overhauled 400 hours ago with new bearings due to gear up in 2007 and the megs have maybe 300 hours since new.

The options I have come up with are do I:

1. Get 4 new millennium cylinder Kits?
2. Get 2 new millennium cylinder kits and overhaul the other 2?
3. Get 2 new to me overhauled cylinders and overhaul the other 2?
4. Replace the motor with a low time one?
5. Overhaul my motor?

[Pete M]

Condition of camshaft and lifters?

Havent done it but if not gonna overhaul i'd send the good cylinders to lycon for refurb and port, polish, flowmatch and buy 2 new or overhauled from them, do the same thing. They claim 5hp per cyl increase. Have a vid on their site of an o320 on a dyno making well over 200hp, could be 220, dont recall exactly. Read good reviews about their work. Not very eexpenive at all...cheap horsepower, if there is such a thing:)

Edited April 29, 2019 by Pete M

[jaylw314]

Is a worn exhaust valve guide alone a reason to replace a cylinder?  I'm guessing others can chime in, but I suspect not.

Cracks in the cylinder are probably a good reason to replace those two cylinders, but it also begs the question why you have two cracked cylinders?

Replacing all 4 cylinders simultaneously is associated with increased risk of catastrophic engine failure--correctly maintaining and retorqueing the cylinder and crankcase bolts is a procedure that has resulted in errors before.

It would seem silly to overhaul the whole motor if the bottom end was overhauled recently.

[M20F]

What is your long term plan for the airplane?

[Guest]

Depending on how thorough the bottom end overhaul was I’d be tempted to put 4 new cylinders on for about $6000 CDN plus labour and fly on.

If and when you do overhaul the engine, you will still have e decent set of cylinders to overhaul and reinstall.

Clarence

[Yetti]

Buy 2 new.   Send the 2 replaced for overhaul.   Then put the overhauled in place next year.   Send the other two out for overhaul.  Now you have spares.

[Prior owner]

The Lycon porting is for experimental only, unfortunately...

[Pete M]

5 hours ago, PilotCoyote said:

The Lycon porting is for experimental only, unfortunately...

Not my understanding...call them

[Stephen Skinner]

On 4/29/2019 at 8:04 PM, jaylw314 said:

Is a worn exhaust valve guide alone a reason to replace a cylinder?  I'm guessing others can chime in, but I suspect not.

Cracks in the cylinder are probably a good reason to replace those two cylinders, but it also begs the question why you have two cracked cylinders?

Replacing all 4 cylinders simultaneously is associated with increased risk of catastrophic engine failure--correctly maintaining and retorqueing the cylinder and crankcase bolts is a procedure that has resulted in errors before.

It would seem silly to overhaul the whole motor if the bottom end was overhauled recently.

I agree that worn valve guide alone is not a not a reason to replace the cylinder.

I don’t know how the cracks came to be. I have been the caretaker of this Mooney for 3 years and have been careful not to shock cool during winter flying. The cracks were not leaking air or penetrating oil when added to the cylinders, but I think cracks are a good reason to replace the cylinder.

I will pursue replacing the cylinders. Where would be a good source for cylinders be?

If the cylinders are reconditioned and I buy them from the USA, do I pay taxes and duties to bring them into Canada?

or what is a good source in Canada? 

 

[carusoam]

Stephen do you have an engine monitor?

O360s and dog house air cooling is tough on CHTs... having a good monitor and climbing out at 120mias may be helpful for CHT related challenges...?

@M20Doc cylinder sourcing in Canada question ^^^^

-a-

[jaylw314]

59 minutes ago, Stephen Skinner said:

I agree that worn valve guide alone is not a not a reason to replace the cylinder.

I don’t know how the cracks came to be. I have been the caretaker of this Mooney for 3 years and have been careful not to shock cool during winter flying. The cracks were not leaking air or penetrating oil when added to the cylinders, but I think cracks are a good reason to replace the cylinder.

I will pursue replacing the cylinders. Where would be a good source for cylinders be?

If the cylinders are reconditioned and I buy them from the USA, do I pay taxes and duties to bring them into Canada?

or what is a good source in Canada? 

 

Hey wait a minute, when you said "penetrating oil", were you talking about dye penetrant?  Are the cracks obvious or are they worth checking with dye penetrant to make sure?

[Yetti]

Maybe try Superior http://www.superiorairparts.com/

Think Airpower has both superior and Lycoming parts.   They had no lycoming fuel lines but had superior stainless line  a couple of months ago.   Canada is probably different

http://www.airpowerinc.com/productcart/pc/engines.asp?searchParm=ALL&catID=33

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Stephen Skinner said:

I agree that worn valve guide alone is not a not a reason to replace the cylinder.

I don’t know how the cracks came to be. I have been the caretaker of this Mooney for 3 years and have been careful not to shock cool during winter flying. The cracks were not leaking air or penetrating oil when added to the cylinders, but I think cracks are a good reason to replace the cylinder.

I will pursue replacing the cylinders. Where would be a good source for cylinders be?

If the cylinders are reconditioned and I buy them from the USA, do I pay taxes and duties to bring them into Canada?

or what is a good source in Canada? 

 

There are no duties to pay on importation, but you will have to pay 13% HST at import, plus some entry prep fees to UPS or Fed Ex.

Clarence

 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

Hey wait a minute, when you said "penetrating oil", were you talking about dye penetrant?  Are the cracks obvious or are they worth checking with dye penetrant to make sure?

Some parallel valve cylinders are prone to cracking between the fins of the exhaust port.  With the exhaust removed, you spray some LPS 1 on the fins, wait a few seconds and the LPS will wick through the crack into the port.

Clarence

[BKlott]

Was the bottom end job due to the gear up landing an IRAN or a full OH?

Your engine is beyond the recommended TBO of 2,000 hours or 12 years. The least expensive step in the short run is to either IRAN your cylinders or exchange them for overhauled cylinders and carry on. Do not expect them to last as long as new cylinder assemblies.

The problem with this piecemeal approach with your engine is that when you go to sell the airplane, potential buyers are going to be thinking that they’re going to be stuck with the Major Overhaul that you and the former caretakers didn’t want to pay for. The price that you can get for the airplane, even your ability to readily sell it, will be impacted by this.

This is one of the challenges of owning an airplane. Some people buy airplanes, use them without tackling the upkeep issues (avionics, paint, interior, engine, etc.) and the aircraft steadily diminishes in value. Eventually it costs more to refurbish and update the airplane than it is worth. The airplane and it’s owner reaches the end of the road.

Other owners assume the caretaker role. They will accept the costs associated with upgrading and maintaining their airplane with an eye to the future. The decisions they make will be tempered by the fact that the airplane will eventually pass on to another caretaker and that it needs to have value in order for that to occur. These airplanes are better maintained, in nicer condition, typically sell quicker and for a higher price than their counterparts.

I believe that a wise owner thinks about these decisions and considers what will make the airplane more enjoyable today and more desirable to the next owner. 

[Prior owner]

17 hours ago, Pete M said:

Not my understanding...call them

You sir are quite correct. The last time I looked into this (years ago) the shop I was talking to would only do it under experimental. Lycon verified that they provide the service for certified engines. $300 a jug for porting and flow matching.

I can see an experimental engine benefitting from this procedure because you would be free to change your Venturi size. Not so on our engine- so I am doubtful that we would reap a 20hp increase. I’d love to see dyno/fuel flow numbers for a ported O-360 with a stock carb. Very curious what we would get from a $1200 +shipping investment in porting.

[tigers2007]

On 4/29/2019 at 6:35 PM, Stephen Skinner said:

I am trying to decide what I should do with my motor and asking for suggestions from the group....

My O-360-A1D has 2,200 Hours SMOH and the cylinders could be that old except for rings have been replaced once or twice...

I have about 2250 hours on my '64 M20D with the same engine. I think Raptor here is in the same boat. I had both mags overhauled by Aircraft Magneto Service last year and also installed a new Rapco vacuum pump. I'd continue to do "on-condition" maintenance rather than gutting it out prophylactically. Just think of it this way - for every hour you actually fly it, the plane puts $$$ in your pocket. Just be have your engine GoFundMe plan ready to fire at a moments notice (this applies with a 100hr engine or 2000hr engine). 

I just reviewed my telephone call notes with Jewell Aviation from about a month ago. The telephone estimate I received was (all USD) $12,700 for an overhaul. $1,700 labour to R&R the engine if you bring them the aircraft. $3000 to to have my 3-blade Hartzell propeller picked up at their facility and then overhauled and returned back.  So $17,400 USD isn't that hard to swallow versus the $28k+ from many other shops for the same work. Many good reviews and anecdotes about Jewell on this board. 

Sooner or later you will reach that point where it is in your best option to overhaul. 

[jaylw314]

3 minutes ago, tigers2007 said:

I have about 2250 hours on my '64 M20D with the same engine. I think Raptor here is in the same boat. I had both mags overhauled by Aircraft Magneto Service last year and also installed a new Rapco vacuum pump. I'd continue to do "on-condition" maintenance rather than gutting it out prophylactically. Just think of it this way - for every hour you actually fly it, the plane puts $$$ in your pocket. Just be have your engine GoFundMe plan ready to fire at a moments notice (this applies with a 100hr engine or 2000hr engine). 

I just reviewed my telephone call notes with Jewell Aviation from about a month ago. The telephone estimate I received was (all USD) $12,700 for an overhaul. $1,700 labour to R&R the engine if you bring them the aircraft. $3000 to to have my 3-blade Hartzell propeller picked up at their facility and then overhauled and returned back.  So $17,400 USD isn't that hard to swallow versus the $28k+ from many other shops for the same work. Many good reviews and anecdotes about Jewell on this board. 

Sooner or later you will reach that point where it is in your best option to overhaul. 

$12,700??    How does it end up being that low?  (and I can't believe I actually said that)?

[tigers2007]

$12,700??    How does it end up being that low?  (and I can't believe I actually said that)?

Free market capitalists? I have read some anecdotes and even watched a super-boring video on overhauling an O-360 and it certainly is not rocket science. The efforts seem to be with dealing with the headaches of shipping the stuff out to the machine shop and getting it back, and making sure the assembly is done properly. I've read some accident reports on how some engines failed due to poor assembly. For example, a Piper crashed in PA and the NTSB determined that an improperly installed internal part (by Kline Aviation) was suspect in causing the catastrophic failure of the engine during takeoff. I can't remember what the part was but I think it was a piston pin. 

**Edit** NTSB report ERA13LA097

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=151414

[ArtVandelay]

$12,700??    How does it end up being that low?  (and I can't believe I actually said that)?

I had my mechanic call them for my IO360, the prices listed on their website were unbelievable low, but in the end their price was only a little lower than others for my engine model. Their prices don’t include accessories BTW.

 

 

Tom

[Guest]

2 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

$12,700??    How does it end up being that low?  (and I can't believe I actually said that)?

It would be overhauled to S/B 240W. It’s pretty basic and not all encompassing compared to others, but it is “overhauled”  I had a Kline Aviation overhaul in a customer’s airplane, lacking in both parts and paperwork.

https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/Mandatory Parts Replacement at Overhaul and During Repair or Maintenance.pdf

Clarence

 

[jaylw314]

14 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

I had my mechanic call them for my IO360, the prices listed on their website were unbelievable low, but in the end their price was only a little lower than others for my engine model. Their prices don’t include accessories BTW.

Ah.  

[tigers2007]

Mike Busch is on a GoToMeeting WebCast right now sponsored through EAA regarding "Resurrecting an Engine". He just finished his powerpoint and is doing the Q&A session now:

• Obviously the condition of a sitting engine depends on the environment and also the specific precautions taken to preserve it
  • i.e. a sitting a/c in Florida could sit for decades if it was attached to a special dehumidifier, or an a/c in Arizona sitting in a hangar may be fine after a decade..
• Prior to turning the engine over for the first time after it has been sitting for a long time:
  • Acquire a handheld pump sprayer that can output a fine mist
  • Fill the spray with a very thin penetrating oil (KROIL, LPS2, ACF-50)
  • Unscrew all of the spark plugs, and use the pump sprayer to mist each cylinder at bottom dead center. Leave spark plugs off.
  • Fog the same oil into the crankcase via the breather and oil fill tube
  • Turn engine over in short 30-second maximum increments spaced out to keep the starter cool
  • Do this until some oil pressure is built
  • Re-install spark plugs
  • Start engine with minimal fuel priming (so to not wash the penetrating oil off of the cylinders)
  • Run at very low RPM's (600-800 I think he said) until it builds up temperature splash lubricates for a couple minutes then can increase
  • Fly it HARD for the first hour like you're breaking in cylinders
  • THEN you can bore scope it if wanted.
• Additional from Q&A regarding sitting engines:
  • Desiccant plugs work good
  • Put desiccant bags in the exhaust and induction
  • It is a "mixed blessing" to not fly the a/c but run the engine only the ground
    • Running it on the ground does recoat the surfaces
    • Running it creates a substantial amount of moisture
      • Gets into the oil and builds up
    • Flying the a/c and running it at high RPM and operating temp gets rid of the moisture in the crankcase
    • If you can't fly it but can only run it on the ground, hook it up to a dehumidifier in between runs.
    • Mentioned the "Black Max" dehydrator
  • Removing the dipstick cap does remove some of the moisture.
  • Just turning the prop on a sitting engine doesn't do anything. Says it is bad for the engine.
  •  

The full webinar should be viewable in entirety soon for free on YouTube.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, tigers2007 said:

Mike Busch is on a GoToMeeting WebCast right now sponsored through EAA regarding "Resurrecting an Engine". He just finished his powerpoint and is doing the Q&A session now:

• Obviously the condition of a sitting engine depends on the environment and also the specific precautions taken to preserve it
  • i.e. a sitting a/c in Florida could sit for decades if it was attached to a special dehumidifier, or an a/c in Arizona sitting in a hangar may be fine after a decade..
• Prior to turning the engine over for the first time after it has been sitting for a long time:
  • Acquire a handheld pump sprayer that can output a fine mist
  • Fill the spray with a very thin penetrating oil (KROIL, LPS2, ACF-50)
  • Unscrew all of the spark plugs, and use the pump sprayer to mist each cylinder at bottom dead center. Leave spark plugs off.
  • Fog the same oil into the crankcase via the breather and oil fill tube
  • Turn engine over in short 30-second maximum increments spaced out to keep the starter cool
  • Do this until some oil pressure is built
  • Re-install spark plugs
  • Start engine with minimal fuel priming (so to not wash the penetrating oil off of the cylinders)
  • Run at very low RPM's (600-800 I think he said) until it builds up temperature
  • Fly it HARD for the first hour like you're breaking in cylinders
  • THEN you can bore scope it if wanted.

The full webinar should be viewable in entirety soon for free on YouTube.

What?   Turn the engine over until oil pressure is built!  I can’t believe that Mike would even suggest that.  We used to do it that way 35 years ago, we’re smarter now.

Pre oil the engine with a pressure pot through a gallery plug until oil pressure is established.

Clarence

 

[tigers2007]

19 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

What?   Turn the engine over until oil pressure is built!  I can’t believe that Mike would even suggest that.  We used to do it that way 35 years ago, we’re smarter now.

Pre oil the engine with a pressure pot through a gallery plug until oil pressure is established.

Clarence

Clarence

I just asked Mike Busch that question via the Webinar app. Lets see if he can answer it.