Landing speed

[jaylw314]

8 minutes ago, DonMuncy said:

I have become convinced that my inability to land well consistently is my inability to know exactly how high I am. I have flown with a very good CFI who tells me exactly when to flare, and it works better than when I am making the decision. I find myself getting to the correct speed, getting to where I think I am the correct height above the runway, flaring and waiting for it to get to the surface. And often, it doesn't happen when I think it will. I have tried looking down toward the end of the runway, looing at the ground close in front of the plane, and trying to watch out at an angle out the side of the windshield. In each case, sometimes it touches down when I expect it to, sometimes it touches before I expect it to, and sometimes it keeps dropping a second or two longer than I expect.

Here's a Rod Machado video where he suggested a good reference height to flare is when the apparent runway width starts rapidly changing.  Not sure if this is related to what you're talking about, but I thought it was an interesting idea

 

[DonMuncy]

Just now, jaylw314 said:

Here's a Rod Machado video where he suggested a good reference height to flare is when the apparent runway width starts rapidly changing.  

 

I have watched this video. I have not yet had an opportunity to try it. Have you (or anyone else here) used this "apparent widening of the runway to time your flare? Did it help?. Did it confirm what you already see? 

I think all good pilots know when their tires are 6 inches off the pavement, and I don't.

[PT20J]

Rod's a good friend. I really enjoy discussing this stuff with him, but I still can't see this effect, so don't feel bad. Judging height to a few inches is very difficult. Even Bob Hoover said he sometimes had landings he wasn't proud of. I do know from experience with my own flying and instructing that the biggest problem is looking too close to the nose. When I started flying seaplanes, I had trouble judging height because there are fewer cues. I found that looking far into the distance and keeping the eyes moving around to take in the whole landing area helps. It keeps you from fixating on a spot and gives your brain more visual cues to work with.

[DonMuncy]

Thanks

[EricJ]

13 minutes ago, DonMuncy said:

I have watched this video. I have not yet had an opportunity to try it. Have you (or anyone else here) used this "apparent widening of the runway to time your flare? Did it help?. Did it confirm what you already see? 

I think all good pilots know when their tires are 6 inches off the pavement, and I don't.

No two landings are the same because the conditions are never the same.   Wind, exact runway location (over that particular surface bump or not), small changes in speed and momentum, engine power output, drag, etc., etc., *everything* changes in some way from one landing to the next.    Even during the landing the wind may change, you may be entering invisible air density changes due to humidity bubbles or other oddball atmospheric effects, the lighting may change due to clouds or whatever, so from one spot on the runway during settling to another the conditions may change.

So sensing and adapting to all of those things is what you do during a landing, whether you're doing it consciously or not or whether you're successful at them or not.   Add to that the variations of entry speed and height to every flair, and nobody can make it identical every time, and every landing is a new task and new learning and adaptation experience.

Mooneys seem to me to have a slightly smaller window of happy flare entry speeds than many other GA airplanes...too slow and it plops down (which is more consequential on our puckey gear than on a soft oleo or spring steel gear), and too fast it might float past a comfortable quantity of remaining runway.    Some airplanes just have a larger window of landing configurations (speed, height, etc.), that can be easily adjusted for, and on Mooneys they're just not that broad.

And no two pilots have the same visual acuity or processing methods, or sensitivities to inertial changes, etc.    It's like learning to play something on a guitar and trying to do it like your favorite artist or that guy on the YT vid.   Their hands aren't shaped exactly like yours, so you're probably gonna have to learn it a little differently.   

This is partly why I think criticisms of details of how a particular pilot does one thing or other are often not useful.   Maybe that's obvious but I've given up trying to sort out the threshold of "obviousness" with most people.

Anyway, I think if people are working on their landings as they think they need to and not damaging their airplanes or the occupants or leaving unnecessary debris on the runway for others to deal with it's probably all good.   

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, DonMuncy said:

I have watched this video. I have not yet had an opportunity to try it. Have you (or anyone else here) used this "apparent widening of the runway to time your flare? Did it help?. Did it confirm what you already see? 

I think all good pilots know when their tires are 6 inches off the pavement, and I don't.

 

40 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Rod's a good friend. I really enjoy discussing this stuff with him, but I still can't see this effect, so don't feel bad. Judging height to a few inches is very difficult. Even Bob Hoover said he sometimes had landings he wasn't proud of. I do know from experience with my own flying and instructing that the biggest problem is looking too close to the nose. When I started flying seaplanes, I had trouble judging height because there are fewer cues. I found that looking far into the distance and keeping the eyes moving around to take in the whole landing area helps. It keeps you from fixating on a spot and gives your brain more visual cues to work with.

I think it's just one more technique to try if the problem is judging when to start the flare.  Don, now you're kind of sounding like it's perhaps more judging the actual height at touchdown?  Maybe some practice with faster approaches so you have more time to practice floating a couple inches off the runway?  You'd need to judge whether you'd need an instructor with you.

I tried Rod's suggestion, and found modestly helpful.  Be careful, though--the first time I tried it, I was focused on the runway under me waiting for the cue instead of looking down the runway.  That resulted in a late flare.  I think the way to use it is to focus down the runway like normal, but look for the visual cue out of your peripheral vision, if that makes any sense.

[Yetti]

Here is something to try.   Sit on the runway before take off.   remember that sight picture.   Go around the and repeat the same sight picture with the nose a bit higher when you land.   Thinking it through, after the landing is made, I start working on getting the nose on the centerline.   as far as speed.  The times I look at it is to get the plane under gear speed.  Get the gear out.   Then on base to make sure I don't violate the flaps deployed under 90mph rule.  The rest of it is just trusting the plane is slowing down.    flaps get deployed based on conditions and how well I set it up.   Good control of the airplane is more important than speed.  There is lots of flying going on close to the runway.

Edited March 29, 2019 by Yetti

[Andy95W]

3 hours ago, DonMuncy said:

I have watched this video. I have not yet had an opportunity to try it. Have you (or anyone else here) used this "apparent widening of the runway to time your flare? Did it help?. Did it confirm what you already see? 

I think all good pilots know when their tires are 6 inches off the pavement, and I don't.

My home airport is 40' wide.  Sometimes I get gas at the big airport that has a 150' wide runway.  I always flare too high.  ALWAYS.  

6 inches off the pavement?  I can't tell that I'm 6 feet off the pavement.

I bet you're better than you're giving yourself credit for, Don.  My guess is that if you did one flight per week of only take offs and landings, you'd get back to where you used to be.  Unfortunately it's not that convenient in a 231 compared to an M20C.

[FloridaMan]

The biggest factor for landing distance, and factors more than weight or approach speed (within reason) is idle speed. When I first got my new engine on my M20F, the idle crept up to around 850 RPM when the engine was warm and I'd use up 2000ft of runway easily to land. I had my IA turn it down to where it'd just barely run and I can be landed and stopped in the M20F well before the 1000ft mark (and I'd say maybe within 500ft at times). 1.2 Vso should be your speed on short final and 1.3 on final. 

[skydvrboy]

4 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

In fact the only time I watch my ASI on approach is when in formation and it needs to be exactly 90 knots on the approach.

The only time I really keep close tabs on my airspeed is when I'm landing at the neighbor's.  When I cross the power lines, I know I have 2200' to the end of the RWY and 1750' to the turnoff.  If i miss the turnoff, I'll have to get out and push in order to turn around on the narrow runway.  I haven't missed it yet! (now I just jinxed myself).

As for judging height, I have to move my eyes around, with quick glances to the side, and not look at any one place like @PT20J does for water landings.  Especially when I go from the 30' runway to the 150' runway in town.  That runway width vs height illusion is powerful.

[Hank]

7 minutes ago, skydvrboy said:

The only time I really keep close tabs on my airspeed is when I'm landing at the neighbor's.  When I cross the power lines, I know I have 2200' to the end of the RWY and 1750' to the turnoff.  If i miss the turnoff, I'll have to get out and push in order to turn around on the narrow runway.  I haven't missed it yet! (now I just jinxed myself).

As for judging height, I have to move my eyes around, with quick glances to the side, and not look at any one place like @PT20J does for water landings.  Especially when I go from the 30' runway to the 150' runway in town.  That runway width vs height illusion is powerful.

I have to pay attention visiting Mom & Dad, the runway is 2770 x 30, but turning around is easy with these at both ends. Since I generally land uphill (0.4%), I rarely go past the ramp. But the big, wide runways can be a problem . . . .

[steingar]

There are three simple rules to landing a Mooney.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Problem is no one knows what they are.

[ArtVandelay]

Sure there is:
1. never force the plane down
2. More speed, more runway...something like for every knot is an extra 100’
3. If you bounce twice, go around!


Tom

[gsxrpilot]

Actually only two rules needed for good landings... I'm assuming that performing the landing with wheels down, on a runway, is a given.

1. Power off
2. Hold it off

[Bob - S50]

Since we have wandered off topic slightly, I'll add this:

The airlines always said the secret to a good landing was a stabilized approach.  And here I always thought it was a well executed flare!

When I flew for a living, I always considered there were three requirements for a landing to be declared a good one:

1.  A smooth touchdown.

2.  No side to side excursions as the passengers wondered if you were going to be able to keep it on the runway.

3.  Minimal braking so the passengers didn't think that the end of the runway was approaching quickly.

Of course, #1 and #3 were out the window when landing at Midway on a snow covered runway.  Slam it on and stand on the brake.  Screw the passengers opinions!

[Andy95W]

I like that, Bob.  It reminds me of a Captain I flew with at a regional airline 20 years ago.  His method of grading landings really keeps the important things in perspective:

-Landing in the touchdown zone = 3 points

-Landing on the centerline = 2 points

-Landing softly = 1 point

[steingar]

51 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

I like that, Bob.  It reminds me of a Captain I flew with at a regional airline 20 years ago.  His method of grading landings really keeps the important things in perspective:

-Landing in the touchdown zone = 3 points

-Landing on the centerline = 2 points

-Landing softly = 1 point

I think I flew in his jet  one time.  I asked him if he was going to log all three landings.

Edited March 29, 2019 by steingar