Ovation3 Questions - gear, rudder trim

[Dale]

I recently traded my M20K 262 for a Mooney Ovation3 with a G1000 system and an s-tec 55x autopilot.  I am doing the waas upgrade in a couple of weeks.  I have some questions for other Ovation pilots out there.  I am now doing the transition training with my instructor.  We spent about 5 hours working on landings, crosswind landings and some G1000 work.  A couple of things I am wondering about what other Ovation pilots are doing.  My instructor recommends trimming the rudder to the right on take off.  I have tried this and it does seem better for takeoffs, especially on crosswind take offs and landings with the wind coming from the right side of the plane.  Do other Ovation pilots do this with their ovations as a regular routine?  I never used any rudder trim on takeoffs or landings in my M20K, I just applied right rudder on take off.

On my first landing with the Ovation, while I was on final, a plane got stuck on the runway and we needed to do a go around.  I leveled off, increased the throttle and began to climb out.  I then retracted the landing gear.  The gear went halfway up and stopped.  My instructor noticed the landing light at the top of the panel come on.  After taking the plane out of the pattern we found the gear circuit breaker had popped.  He pushed the breaker back in and moved the gear knob to the gear down position.  The gear locked down.  Apparently, when I leveled off and increased the throttle I had the airspeed above 106 knots and you cannot retract the gear in the Ovation 3 above 106 knots.  I understand the gear motor cannot take the force of retracting the gear above 106 knots.  I never experienced this in my K model and retracted the gear a couple of times above 106 knots.  I then made sure I was below 106 knots and the gear retracted normally.  We did another 7 or 8 landings and I had no trouble with retracting the gear but I also was sure the airspeed was well below 106 knots.  Has anyone else ever had this happen to them where they had gear stop in transit due to the airspeed being to high when the retraction started.  I was surprised because I never had this issue on my K model.  

Any help or insights to the above questions would be appreciated.  Thanks.

[carusoam]

Congrats on the new 2U bird...

 

All Mooneys have the challenge of increased difficulty of stowing gear at higher speeds...

I don’t recall the CB opening as a normal limit, close to normal gear operating speeds... 106kias may need to be looked into...  for the up direction...

 

Rudder trim is used to counteract P-forces...  enjoy it!  You didn’t know you could  be using it on other Mooneys....

The fun part... using the trim for descent... longer period of time, but not as strong as the climb...center the ball with it.

One thing to be aware of... setting the rudder trim effects your ground steering... you can use the trim to steer the plane on the ground...

 

Who is your transition trainer?

Best regards,

-a-

[LANCECASPER]

30 minutes ago, Dale said:

My instructor recommends trimming the rudder to the right on take off.  I have tried this and it does seem better for takeoffs, especially on crosswind take offs and landings with the wind coming from the right side of the plane.  Do other Ovation pilots do this with their ovations as a regular routine?  I never used any rudder trim on takeoffs or landings in my M20K, I just applied right rudder on take off.

 

You have 310 HP in this airplane compared to 210 in your previous K model. Most likely the reason you didn't use rudder trim on your K model is because on a 231 you probably didn't have rudder trim. My 1983 M20K didn't have rudder trim, but the M20R and the M20Ms that I've owned had it.

You will be all over the runway on T/O with 310HP and no rudder trim (P Force). Just remember to take the rudder trim off for landing.

Go by what your POH says. Use Rudder Trim at the Take/Off setting, which is noted to the right of the Rudder Trim indicator (T/O) :

If your transition instructor and the POH are both telling you to use rudder trim on take-off, and as you mentioned "it seems better", why not?

 

[Dale]

Thanks for the reply.  Corbin Halloran is my Mooney transition instructor.  My Ovation3 has two placards at the gear knob.  One says 140 knots maximum airspeed for the gear down and another placard that says 106 knots maximum gear up speed.  Am I one of the only Ovation owners that has a placard for maximum gear up speed of 106 knots?  

Also, Is it common for pilots flying behind the 550 engine to commonly use right rudder on take off due to the added power or do most just push the right rudder pedal on take off.

[LANCECASPER]

15 minutes ago, carusoam said:

 

I don’t recall the CB opening as a normal limit, close to normal gear operating speeds... 106kias needs to be looked into... gear operating speed is about 140kias... up and down.

 

Here's what the POH says:

[LANCECASPER]

4 minutes ago, Dale said:

Also, Is it common for pilots flying behind the 550 engine to commonly use right rudder on take off due to the added power or do most just push the right rudder pedal on take off.

It's common for most pilots flying behind any engine to follow the POH, which, on the M20R, says use Rudder Trim at the Take-Off Setting for take-offs.

[Dale]

Landscaper, thanks for the info.  I guess my questions stem from my time flying the k model and trying to make sure I understand the differences on the transition to the R model.

[carusoam]

Great details, Lance!  (I’m going to update the post...)

Nice timely avatar update, Dale!

For the most part, the 310hp O accelerates pretty quickly, but... retracting the gear happens pretty quickly...  if you are climbing out in the initial climb... Vx or Vy you are under 100kias... tap the brakes for tradition, raise the gear...

Enjoy the rudder trim for centering the ball...

• Take-off setting for departure... you won’t notice it on the ground roll like you will during taxi...
• climbing...
• cruise, to balance the fuel load differential
• descent, to squeeze that last couple of kias that are available with the ball centered...

Check what the procedures say for landing... it probably plans for the G-A...

The 310hp really has gobs of torque, and gobs of rotational momentum... its a fantastic lesson of mechanics, statics and dynamics...in real life.

Midnight MS is alive!

Best regards,

-a-

[LANCECASPER]

16 minutes ago, Dale said:

Landscaper, thanks for the info.  I guess my questions stem from my time flying the k model and trying to make sure I understand the differences on the transition to the R model.

The M20K 231 that was converted to a 262 didn't have rudder trim. Your beautiful new M20R has Rudder Trim because it needs it with an aggressive 3 blade prop and nearly 50% more HP available on take-off.

[MIm20c]

Dale, congratulations on your new plane. I’ve always liked Fred and his team down in southern FL. 

I know what you mean about the rudder forces. 16 years ago I had my first flight in a sr22. At that point I only had 152 seat time and needed a stronger leg. 

My gear does not retract well at 106kts either, my arm isn't strong enough...

[flyingcheesehead]

On my Ovation (1, 280hp), I take off with the rudder trim all the way to the right, and still give it another legful of rudder on rotation and initial climb. Usually by the time I'm pulling the flaps up at 95ish KIAS the trim alone will take care of it, and by the time I'm in a cruise climb I'll begin adjusting the rudder trim off the right stop. And yes, I use rudder trim in all phases of flight - That's what it's there for. It doesn't need much in the way of adjusting after you're leveled out in cruise.

I pull the gear up at about 80-85 KIAS I think - Generally, as soon as I'm climbing steadily, a few seconds after liftoff, even if I have usable runway available. I figure it comes down plenty fast that I should be able to get it back down if the engine quits right in that first few seconds, while pulling it up early gives me more energy (altitude and speed) to work with should the engine quit later on.

The only thing I've ever had the gear breaker pop for was when some kids who I let into the plane pulled the red lever above the emergency gear extension and engaged the clutch for that system. If you try to retract the gear in that state, it binds up and pops the breaker, and you're done moving the gear until you visit your friendly local A&P to back it off. Lesson learned the hard way, but luckily it only cost me an hour of labor. That said, I don't think I've ever waited until even close to 106 KIAS to pull the gear up. By that point, I'm approaching Vfe and so I need to be getting the flaps up ASAP.

It sounds to me like you might be slightly behind the plane still, which is perfectly understandable at this point in your transition. I bet once you're feeling comfortable with it you'll already be far enough ahead of the game that Vlo(r) won't be an issue.

[Davidv]

I’m not sure about the ovation but my Bravo has the T/O indicator on the rudder trim and I always make sure it’s trimmed to the takeoff position.  As others have pointed out, it will affect your taxiing which is why I trim it just after runup as I’m taxing to the hold short line...

[mike_elliott]

Congrats on your new O3. Corby is a great instructor, you will be well served to heed his advice. He is well versed in the G1000/Stec combo. Care should be used on a go around as you described to make sure you put some right foot in as you power up so you don't have the pilot side wing become one with the runway lights, as the rudder trim will be out and that o3 can really display what P factor is, far more than your old K does

I cant recall trying to retract the gear above Vlo, so I am not sure if there is an airspeed switch protection preventing it or not in your case. Corb could ask one of the maintenance guys at Premier, they should know. If there isn't, you should have it looked at. The breaker popping lends me to think there isn't.

Personally I suggest before crossing the runway threshold line, make sure trim, rudder trim, and flaps are set correctly with a double check. Develop this memory muscle habit and it will prevent a surprise right after liftoff, as @Davidv suggests

i am surprised there are still WAAS upgrades available for the STEC/G1000 birds. I was under the impression Dmax bought up the pieces to do the last 5 or so about 9 months ago and has since run out. Good for you to be able to accomplish this

[ilovecornfields]

As @LANCECASPER said, follow the POH.

1. Put the rudder trim in “takeoff” setting for takeoff.

2. Center rudder trim before you land.

In my 310 HP O2 I put the rudder trim on T/O setting after I complete my run up, pull up the gear when I have a positive rate and pull up the flaps passing 85 KIAS. With 310 HP this happens quickly.

Never had the gear breaker pop. This would bother me until it was checked out. 

[Dale]

Everyone, thank you so much for the information.  The gear issue caught me by surprise on the go around.  I know I was above the placard speed of 106 knots when I tried to retract the gear.  It is a good thing Corby was with me.  I looked in the poh and didn't remember seeing an emergency gear procedure for gear stuck in transition.  I would have followed the only gear procedure I was familiar with and that was the manual gear handle procedure.  I am going to go back and look at the emergency gear procedures in the POH and see if I just missed it.  Corby simply pushed the breaker back in and recycled the gear making sure we were under 106 for the gear retraction.  I asked The head of maintenance about the gear up stuck in transition issue and he told me it is set at 106 because the Ovation gear doors are different than what is on the k model (bigger and heavier) and the gear motor can't handle the extra stress on the gear doors at retraction if the speed is above 106.  In the go around I am pretty sure I was above this speed.  I am still going to ask them to check the gear retraction motor in case I screwed something up.  I just feel really stupid!

Thanks for everyone's replies, it really, really helps.  I have been flying Mooneys since I was 18, first in an m20E, then in a M20K and now in an M20R.  I sometimes don't know if the prior experience in the earlier models helps or hinders me because I fall back to thinking I'm in a K model when I should pay closer attention to the POH in the R model like Lance said.  Everyone's  input is really appreciated.  Thank you.

 

[carusoam]

Isn’t it fun being human?

All of the basics that you learned about flying Mooneys still apply...

But every switch, knob and display... get new limitations and locations...

 

The primary thing to check with gear challenges... interference caused by the emergency gear system coming unlatched...

Also check your panel for the speed limits for gear ops... it is written in plain sight.... (I would expect... )

 

If Transition was easy or natural... Transition Training with a Mooney Specific CFII wouldn’t be so highly sought after...

Keep a note pad, paper, or e-list, for things that come up in the next few flights...

Things that you want to add to your checklist or procedures or to your memory... especially with all the new electronics...

Best regards,

-a-

[Jeff_S]

I'll be the contrarian here re: the use of rudder trim on takeoff. I don't use it. I feel like it's my responsibility to keep the nose pointed down the runway and that's what rudders are for, especially in a takeoff situation where the trim is only used for such a short time.  I figure that's one less thing to forget about once I am established in a cruise climb.

I guess I picked this up during my tailwheel training, when I almost did let a SuperD scoot off the left edge of the runway before the instructor got it back.  That's yet another reason that I call my Ovation 3 a "Mooney Tail Dragger"!  But I have never once felt that my leg strength wasn't sufficient to the task.  Perhaps as I get older...

There is also the issue of the SB that was put out by Mooney, citing the potential for rudder-trim to get stuck when in a full position...or something like that. I can't remember the details, since I don't use rudder trim and I'm not under warranty I decided to forego that expense.

[mike_elliott]

You could say the same about elevator trim, but that's a real bad idea, Jeff. When transitioning a pilot to his O, TN, V or U, I will have them do a no rudder trim takeoff so they can experience it, as well as bounced full flap aborted landing. But they know what to expect. Rudder trim is your friend, and should be used to lighten the load in the most dangerous time of flying the plane.Thats why its there, you paid for it, go for it.

The SB was for the elevator trim, caused by our own @Amelia

[Jeff_S]

Thanks Mike. I always appreciate and respect your opinion...I guess it's a good thing you didn't notice that I didn't use rudder trim when you did my FR a few years ago!  My concern is more about forgetting that I've applied rudder trim once I'm in cruise climb or cruise. While not a dangerous condition I suppose, it's just one less thing I have to remember. It's very obvious during takeoff that rudder trim is required, so I couldn't possibly forget to use it then.

Regarding the SB I mentioned, it was actually an SIM that came out last year relating to rudder-trim slippage in the Ovation and Acclaim.  Here's the reference to that:

SIM20-124

2018 April 11

Prevent Inadvertent Rudder Trim Slipping During Extreme Deflections

[carusoam]

Have no fear, Jeff...

you still get to use the rudder, a lot.

As everything is changing from and during...

1) Torque during T/O run...

2) Gyro effect as the nose gets lifted...

3) spiraling winds on the tale become less as the plane increases speed...

4) weight in the fuel tanks being depleted...

5) nose down for descent... a light left rudder trim...?

You get the opportunity to use the tale trim to center the ball, often...

It will keep your right leg from experiencing the effects of an uneven exercise...  

Done properly, you might save a minute or two on a long cross country flight...

The precision of flying a Mooney...  speed, efficiency, safety, and precision.... the lesser known fourth leg of the stool!

Best regards,

-a-

[Dale]

It seems like my gear problem got a little worse.  As I explained earlier, I had the gear stop halfway up during retraction.  We attributed this  to the fact that I was over the gear retraction speed of 106 knots.  The gear circuit breaker popped and my instructor pushed the circuit breaker back in and recycled the gear first down, then back up and they retracted normally.  We made sure we were well below 106 knots.  We did another 4 or 5 take off and landings with no problems.  We flew today and worked on some slow flight and when we went to retract the gear at around 87 knots the gear once again only partially retracted.  We followed the same procedure as described above and after pushing in the circuit breaker a couple of times the gear retracted.  That was it, we took the plane back to the airport to have the mechanics thoroughly check it out.  Apparently, there was an sb on the gear motor in this year's Ovation.

Has anyone ever had a similar situation occur on their Mooney Gear?  I also looked in the POH for this situation and apparently, this particular gear retraction issue isn't covered.  What is covered is a fault in the gear system related to the airspeed cutting off the gear motor beyond a certain speed.  You push a bypass switch which overrides the airspeed fault limit and retracts the gear.  My issue was different since it popped the circuit breaker.  In any event, I hope this information helps anyone who may experience the same problem.  I will let everyone know what the mechanic finds.

[LANCECASPER]

On an Ovation I had something similar where twice the gear would retract slowly and stay in "Gear Unsafe" longer than it should have. I should have immediately flown it to a Mooney guru and had it looked at it, but since it didn't happen every time, I thought maybe the limit switches needed to be cleaned.

When I sold the airplane, as the shop who was doing the pre-buy was towing it by hand into the hangar, the nose gear collapsed and missed a prop strike by an inch. That's the only insurance claim I've made in 33 years - $8000. It turned out fine, but in addition to the insurance claim, I discounted it to the buyer.

Lesson learned: These things don't "fix" themselves - it gave me a cry for help twice that I ignored.

[carusoam]

There can be a sensitivity to a boogered gear in the retract system...

There is a brass gear that gets messed up when the electric system crosses with the manual system... a situation that occurs when the manual system is accidently engaged without the pilot knowing about it...

Not sure how to check for that, but you can read up on the failure around here somewhere....

The only other failure of the long body landing gear that I remember is a broken tube that was no longer set up properly....?

PP thoughts only,

-a-

[Dale]

Problem found and resolved.  Apparently, the jack screw on the landing gear was torn up.  The mechanics said a bearing went bad and tore up the jack screw.  They repaired the jack screw and the bearing and put in a new gear motor to be safe.  It was a good time to catch the problem before it got any worse, otherwise, it may have hung up so bad that I couldn't hang crank it down.  However, the mechanics thought that with the weight of the gear that it could still have been hand cranked down, but now I hope I never have to find out.  Thanks for everyone's input into this matter.  It was really appreciated.  This is such a wonderful site with so many great Mooney pilots here willing to share their knowledge.  Thank you all.

I am back for some more transition training this week.  I am slowly starting to feel more comfortable in the plane and I have been studying the G1000 system and taking some online courses to understand all the functions.  Luckily, I have the FSX Steam flight simulator at home and was able to download a G1000 single engine aircraft with synthetic vision that reproduces almost all of the G1000's capabilities right down to placing in the flight plans and shooting the approaches.  It really helps when I get behind the real thing.  The version that comes with the Steam FSX has limited capabilities but if you purchase one of the 3rd party vendors planes with the G1000 it has almost all the capabilities of a real G1000.   It makes the transition training a little easier.  Thanks again everyone.

[ilovecornfields]

29 minutes ago, Dale said:

Problem found and resolved.  Apparently, the jack screw on the landing gear was torn up.  The mechanics said a bearing went bad and tore up the jack screw.  They repaired the jack screw and the bearing and put in a new gear motor to be safe.  It was a good time to catch the problem before it got any worse, otherwise, it may have hung up so bad that I couldn't hang crank it down.  However, the mechanics thought that with the weight of the gear that it could still have been hand cranked down, but now I hope I never have to find out.  Thanks for everyone's input into this matter.  It was really appreciated.  This is such a wonderful site with so many great Mooney pilots here willing to share their knowledge.  Thank you all.

I am back for some more transition training this week.  I am slowly starting to feel more comfortable in the plane and I have been studying the G1000 system and taking some online courses to understand all the functions.  Luckily, I have the FSX Steam flight simulator at home and was able to download a G1000 single engine aircraft with synthetic vision that reproduces almost all of the G1000's capabilities right down to placing in the flight plans and shooting the approaches.  It really helps when I get behind the real thing.  The version that comes with the Steam FSX has limited capabilities but if you purchase one of the 3rd party vendors planes with the G1000 it has almost all the capabilities of a real G1000.   It makes the transition training a little easier.  Thanks again everyone.

Glad to hear it’s taken care of! I learned the Garmin 530 by using YouTube and x-plane. The interface was almost identical.