Looking at a C, PPI question

[Wrench978]

My wife and I are finally looking for our first plane. Our budget is pretty low, but we want to travel with the plane, so we are looking at C’s. I spoke with the owner of one (who is also a broker) and when I asked if he would be willing to take the plane to MSC for a PPI he said I would be wasting my money, that they would find a list of squawks as big as the cost of the plane. I’m not worried about that, because as long as the plane is as advertised, I think it’s a fair price. I’m not looking for reasons to negotiate the price down. But for my wife and I, a $30k purchase is still a big purchase. I want to make sure we don’t get bit, especially as 1st time buyers. 

 

So. Is he right? Am I better off bringing someone who knows Mooney’s with me to give it a “look-see” and call it good? Or is it worth the grand or so to know that I’m (most likely) not going to find major issues the first time I bring the plane to a mechanic? 

 

Btw, I am in Puerto Rico and the plane is not. So there is a long distance factor here too. 

[gsxrpilot]

I would say the lower the budget, the more careful one must be. The broker is correct that it's easy for a $30K airplane to have more than $30K worth of problems. I have a list of over 10 situations where someone bought a cheap Mooney only to spend close to, or over the purchase price just to get it airworthy.

The problem here is that fixing things costs the same whether on a $30K M20C or a $120K M20J. If the tanks are leaking, the repair costs the same, if the landing gear pucks have to be replaced, it's the same cost, if the gear trusses are rusted and have to be replaced, the same costs. Avionics cost the same whether it goes in an M20C or an M20J. The difference is that spending $30K to improve a $120K J is reasonable. Doing the same for a $30K M20C doesn't make economic sense. Especially since $50K would probably buy a turn-key, well maintained, and upgraded M20C.

I would not spend $30K on an airplane without having a very thorough PPI done by a shop that knows what they're doing with Mooney PPI's. And that's probably an MSC.

Feel free to post the link to the plane. Chances are, someone here knows of it.

[Marauder]

Another way to say what Paul said; "would you want to be flying around with your wife in a plane with a bunch of airworthiness squawks?" I wouldn't. I would want to know the complete airworthiness of a 50 year old airplane. There may be discrepancies found which are not considered airworthiness related, but if you are a safety conscious pilot, you may want to address them at some point.

[Dreamlifter]

There is a wealth of information on this site and a good place to start.

Owning a Mooney is not a cheap endeavor. The Annual inspection alone starts around $2000.00 (2 AMU's) and up. You will want ADS-B, have you looked into the cost of that? Insurance, hangar? 

A lot of people find out quickly they can buy the airplane then find it very difficult to afford to fly and maintain to the level required for safe ownership.

Use the search box to scour the knowledge available here.

Good luck!

[David_H]

42 minutes ago, Wrench978 said:

when I asked if he would be willing to take the plane to MSC for a PPI he said I would be wasting my money, that they would find a list of squawks as big as the cost of the plane.

You'll want to see the mile-long squawk list (if there is one) before you buy the plane... not afterwards.

Differed maintenance can eat you alive on some very "big ticket" items. The same is true for a huge pile of "small ticket" items. The squawk list is the only way you'll be able to gather a true understanding of what the condition of the plane really is.

[Wrench978]

thanks for the replies.  I have been lurking and reading this website for a while.  I appreciate the knowledge this board has!  I have felt from the beginning that a proper prebuy is the way to go.  I just wanted to make sure I was not off base with that.  We are looking at lower priced planes because we want to be able to afford to fly and maintain them.  if we spend all our money on the plane itself, we will be in a tougher position to maintain.  I am all for having a safe aircraft.  but I also don't need the shiniest paint and newest avionics.    I have looked into ADS-B requirements and plan on addressing that as soon as we buy something.  There really aren't hangers available here in Puerto Rico since Maria, so I figure some nice covers from Bruce's will have to suffice (another reason Im not trying to buy the nicest looking plane).

 

For those who are asking, the plane is located in Boulder, CO.

http://www.aest-sales.com/N7870V.html

 

Thoughts?

 

Thanks again.  You guys are great! 

[bonal]

Ad says a 25k annual was done at Top gun in Stockton CA one of the best Mooney shops. You might contact them and get their thoughts on this airplane. If true they would likely be able to provide a good bit of info. If not true then keep looking. Good luck.

[Yetti]

GSxRPilot and I offer different views on this.  There are three big money items on a Mooney.  Spar Corrosion, Fuel Tank sealant, Engine.   (The lectronics can be tested by a pilot)  ADSB can be a large item depending on where you fly.

It is a couple hours to check for spar corrosion.  A quick check is to look in the back of the wheel wells.   Then a borescope down the panels.

Fuel tank.   Fill them to the top and let them sit overnight.   I would say stick a camera in them and take pictures, but that would be dangerous and you should not do it.  This was on a J model that I looked at.

Engine.   Look at the last 3 years of compression checks and AD Log.

Just saved you 1 AMU to 2 AMU for a PPI that you can now spend fixing the other things.

Expect and have in the bank 10 AMU for the first year.   Does not matter if it is a $30K plane or a $250K plane

Spend 2 AMU on a PPI  to protect your investment on a 100 - 250K plane

 

[Wrench978]

1 minute ago, bonal said:

Ad says a 25k annual was done at Top gun in Stockton CA one of the best Mooney shops. You might contact them and get their thoughts on this airplane. If true they would likely be able to provide a good bit of info. If not true then keep looking. Good luck.

 

Thats a good idea.  I hadn't thought of calling them.  Ill do that!

[gsxrpilot]

As the advert states, $25K annual done at Top Gun (an MSC). That should give one pause that $25K spent could bring a plane up to a value of $30K. 

This one actually looks pretty good for $30K. Assuming it would pass a thorough pre-buy at a good MSC, it could be a good low cost airplane. I don't see shoulder belts in the picture, and would want those installed ASAP.

Everything else can wait until funds are ready to be spent.

I'll be in Denver on Saturday and visiting several airports in the area. I'm happy to go by and put eyes on it if you like. Send me a PM if that interests you. There are some others on this board in Denver who could also put eyes on it for you before spending money to get a proper inspection.

 

[gsxrpilot]

@Yetti and I don't really disagree that much. I always say that spar corrosion is a deal breaker, full stop. Cam corrosion, or other engine issues requiring immediate overhaul, is also a deal breaker. Unfortunately it's not easy to determine the engine issues. There can be clues in oil analysis, borescoping, etc. But most don't pull a cylinder during a PPI.

Tanks on the other hand are only $7k for a full strip and reseal. That's less than just about any avionics work. 

And @Yetti is exactly right about having the financial strength to handle unexpected and even routine maintenance.

But I'd still get a PPI

[Yetti]

I think someone should just truck bed liner the panel.   The gap on the right side of the main panel almost looks not airworthy.....    I have no letters behind my name to back up my opinions.

[67 m20F chump]

Isn’t the overhaul from 1982?  That’s a bunch of years without a good look at the cam and lifters.  I don’t know of any bargains in aviation.  With that being said definitely get a pre purchase inspection.  You may want to turn it into an annual inspection if it passes the sniff test.  I have no idea what the maintenance situation would be in PR.

[Yetti]

1 minute ago, gsxrpilot said:

@Yetti and I don't really disagree that much.

 

I know but it's online and online is always better with a slight theatrical tension to keep the readers engaged.

[67 m20F chump]

Some more thoughts.  That Top Gun annual was in 2008.  So it depends on your definition of recent.  That is also when the gear pucks were done.  They say to do them every 12 years or so on the lighter planes.  It also looks like the plane is overdue for an annual too.  That may be the reason he doesn’t want to take it to a MSC.

one more thing that caught my non A&P eye was an entry for installation of a doubler on the elevator.  I know it’s a no no on Beechcraft so I would want to ask a mechanic about that.

Also the add says the paint isn’t old but I went back 11 years and didn’t see when it was done.  Like Ron said “trust but verify “.  I don’t know the broker but I do know some of them are so crooked they have to screw their pants on.  A PPI is a must and don’t skimp.  If it goes well have them do an annual.  

[Yetti]

4 minutes ago, 67 m20F chump said:

one more thing that caught my non A&P eye was an entry for installation of a doubler on the elevator.  I know it’s a no no on Beechcraft so I would want to ask a mechanic about that.

 

Doubler on the spar is an SB on mooneys that don't have it from the factory.

[Wrench978]

4 minutes ago, 67 m20F chump said:

Some more thoughts.  That Top Gun annual was in 2008.  So it depends on your definition of recent.  That is also when the gear pucks were done.  They say to do them every 12 years or so on the lighter planes.  It also looks like the plane is overdue for an annual too.  That may be the reason he doesn’t want to take it to a MSC.

one more thing that caught my non A&P eye was an entry for installation of a doubler on the elevator.  I know it’s a no no on Beechcraft so I would want to ask a mechanic about that.

Also the add says the paint isn’t old but I went back 11 years and didn’t see when it was done.  Like Ron said “trust but verify “.  I don’t know the broker but I do know some of them are so crooked they have to screw their pants on.  A PPI is a must and don’t skimp.  If it goes well have them do an annual.  

yeah, I was looking through the logs just now (he just recently added them to the website) and noticed the "Big Top Gun" annual that was only 150 hours ago was 11 years ago...

[Marauder]

thanks for the replies.  I have been lurking and reading this website for a while.  I appreciate the knowledge this board has!  I have felt from the beginning that a proper prebuy is the way to go.  I just wanted to make sure I was not off base with that.  We are looking at lower priced planes because we want to be able to afford to fly and maintain them.  if we spend all our money on the plane itself, we will be in a tougher position to maintain.  I am all for having a safe aircraft.  but I also don't need the shiniest paint and newest avionics.    I have looked into ADS-B requirements and plan on addressing that as soon as we buy something.  There really aren't hangers available here in Puerto Rico since Maria, so I figure some nice covers from Bruce's will have to suffice (another reason Im not trying to buy the nicest looking plane).
 
For those who are asking, the plane is located in Boulder, CO.
http://www.aest-sales.com/N7870V.html
 
Thoughts?
 
Thanks again.  You guys are great! 

I just looked over the engine logs. The plane hasn’t flown much in the past 10 years, including a 3 year period where only 0.2 hours was logged. I’d want the cam looked at if it were me. There are also a couple of big gaps in history on the engine (a chunk of time where nothing is logged).

I know you are tight on a budget. But we have seen these situations come up over and over again. The money you would like to use to fly the plane may end up being used to keep the plane operational.




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[MikeOH]

OK, I'm probably the LEAST experienced owner here...I've only owned my M20F for a year and a half.  I shopped for many years and looked at a lot of planes; sad to say, most were dogs that had sat unflown.  That is the BIGGEST red flag to me.  I walked if the plane had only been flown a few hours in the last year.  Many hadn't been flown in many years.  Non-use was a deal breaker to me.

While I paid $1K for a PPI at a MSC, and would do so again, they don't find everything!  My point, as others have stated, is to make CERTAIN you can afford unknown repairs that you can be CERTAIN will arise!  For example, not a month after purchase I noticed the prop was leaking...should have that been found at pre-buy?  Yeah, I think it should have.  But, there was $1500 for a re-seal in the first month of ownership.

I'm a fix when I find kind of guy when it comes to my airplane; there was only $2K worth of things to fix at my first annual at Top Gun.  However, all-in, (fuel, hangar, taxes, maintenance,...) I spent $18K to fly a little under 100 hours my first year.  I had hoped for $1K/month my first year...hopefully, I'll do better this year.  But, I just dropped 1.4AMU on an oil cooler refurb and new oil lines last month

My advice: make sure you can afford to spend $1K-$2K per month to actually maintain and FLY what you buy.

[cliffy]

As a 55 year A&P and 17 year Mooney owner, you can do lots better with some more looking. To me there are too many red flags on this one. 

To be honest- for me, the panel is garbage. Many mods that need to be looked at for legal entries in the logs.

If the elevator has a patch, that is not allowed by Mooney (I have that direct from them)

The engine is a long time from overhaul and sat for many years. Too much chance of a cam going flat 

Just the mention in the ad that the engine is noted to go twice the normal TBO is enough for me to be very cautious of the seller (ask here how many have ever gone twice the TBO )

Over 7000 hours on the airframe? 

There is a reason why it is priced so low and its probably going to sell for a lot less (maybe to the "Grim Reaper" right here :-)

Do yourself a favor and keep looking. If its too good to be true, its too good to be true. You can do better even in this lower price range. Many OK to good ones have sold for $30-35,000. Someone on this forum might even know of a better buy out there. We've seen better here AND we've seen many times where someone buys a "too good to be true" Mooney only to wind up with a money pit.  Buying long distance only makes the issues even more important to nail down.

Here are my rules for buying airplanes-

 

NEVER buy the first airplane you look at ( I know you have distance issues but it still holds true)

Its the same whether its an RV or an airplane- NEVER trust ANYTHING a salesman is telling you NEVER, NEVER. Always verify everything!

 

Find a copy of the book - "Purchasing and Evaluating Airplanes" by Brian Jacobson and pay particular attention the chapter 10, Purchase and Sale Contract.

Lots of people are willing to help you right here on the forum. Not trying to burst your bubble just trying to make your first experience enjoyable. Looking is half the fun. Don't short change yourself on that. There will ALWAYS be another airplane to look at.

 

 

[DXB]

OMG that 25k annual from Top Gun advertised by the seller to be "only 150hrs ago" was in 2008.  What a selling point .  

Some planes people put up here require some real investigation and a careful pre-buy to figure out if they are worth it. Luckily this one only takes a quick glance at the logs to pass on it unequivocally. The Florida swampland market has more appeal than this particular plane. 

Pay close heed to everything said above about cheap planes, lest this adventure bankrupt you.  Frankly, if you need a low cost plane, have no buying experience, and you can't easily travel to the mainland on a regular basis to find one, a Mooney is probably not for you.  You might get incredibly lucky and find a good cheap Mooney in Puerto Rico, but expanding your plane make/model selection will help your chances considerably. It's a challenge enough to find both good and cheap in the same airframe, particularly for the newbie buyer.  

I hope this doesn't sound condescending.  I was where you are a few years ago, and I did some really dumb stuff despite lots of time spent trying to educate myself.  I hate to see others repeat my mistakes.

[steingar]

Broker won’t take the aircraft to an MSC for inspection I look at different aircraft. If he isn’t confident about his aircraft why should I buy it? To be honest, I really don’t feel an MSC is the best choice for a PPI. I think the mechanic who’s going to care for the aircraft is the best choice. 

Dont be afraid to walk. Mooney made lots of Rangers. That said, I suspect many if not most have something amiss at the 30 AMU price point. I would also point out to the OP that a Mooney is not a wize purchase for those faint of wallet. Indeed, I can’t think of an aircraft that is. Any aircraft can require ooodles of cash for squawks at any time.

Edited March 11, 2019 by steingar

[cliffy]

Another good book is "How to Buy a Used Aircraft Without Taking a Dive" by Gene Unterman

Really a good how to buy airplanes book. 

[Wrench978]

see, this is why I like groups like this.  I agree with what a lot of you are saying regarding the red flags and whatnot.  much of what has come to light was not available when I first asked the seller about the plane.  the logs were just recently put on line and they don't help ease any concerns.  I appreciate all of the advise.  I will be the first to admit that I can get myself excited about a particular plane and it helps to have a group to ground me.  That being said, if anyone has a lead on a sub 40k mooney that you know is in decent condition, let me know!

[MikeOH]

11 minutes ago, steingar said:

Snip...

Any aircraft can require ooodles of cash for squawks at any time.

^^^ THIS ^^^

It isn't the purchase price that's gonna kill ya.