IFR plate question???

[xcrmckenna]

Some IFR plates in the airport sketch have an arrow to give you a reference of where the runway will be when you break out if you’re on course highlighted in red. But I’ve found some plates don’t have that aid reference, is there a specific reason why a plate wouldn’t have one? Thanks for any info.

 

 

 

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[carusoam]

Interesting complexity you have found there Charles!

 

Looking at both plates... the course from the FAF has to be there.... don’t want to assume there isn’t a change...

1) one plate shows the heading after the FAF and doesn’t show it on the inset...

2) The one with the course in the inset doesn’t have it after the FAF...

Observations, from a PP with a non-current IR...

Best regards,

-a-

[thinwing]

Look up difference between Yankee and Zulu versions of same rnav approach.Z version has lower MDA and that despiction

[xcrmckenna]

So it is a type of approach? Here is what the FAA user guide says. Pretty much they will not always use the aids but doesn’t say why they wouldn’t. Why would a Y approach not provide the reference aid but the Z LPV have one? Maybe they figure you are lower to the ground so you would want the added aid?




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[thinwing]

This

[xcrmckenna]

This

Yeah but why would one plate provide you with the arrow in the sketch view of the plate and the other one doesn’t?


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[carusoam]

Add to the complexity the note in the middle of the plate....

Final approach course offset 12.7°

You are flying in on a course of 148° To the MAP (hondu)... and the runway is 160°... 0.5 nm away.

 

In the other plate... you are flying straight in on the 160° course...

 

Or did I miss something...?

Best regards,

-a-

[xcrmckenna]

You are correct, flying the approach with the way offset course for the first time really threw me wondering where the heck was the airport.


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[xcrmckenna]

Here is an approach with LP minimums with the arrow where a lot don’t.




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[xcrmckenna]

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/acf/media/RDs/12-02-257_simplification_and_stndz_FAC_in_airport_sketch.pdf?fbclid=IwAR19-51xl_EG6yXnnNDv-pB7W4s5BUiTEJr_ZD06fzzYek7bTl8q0UQyP9w


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[Bob - S50]

My suggestion (if you haven't already done so) is to ask on BeechTalk.  There are several pilots there who know TERPS and charts quite well.

[xcrmckenna]

My suggestion (if you haven't already done so) is to ask on BeechTalk.  There are several pilots there who know TERPS and charts quite well.

My computer doesn’t allow me to go onto such dirty websites... I’ll remember that next time, but through Facebook got the arrow mystery solved. If the MAP is in the sketch you’ll see the arrow.


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[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, xcrmckenna said:

My computer doesn’t allow me to go onto such dirty websites... I’ll remember that next time, but through Facebook got the arrow mystery solved. If the MAP is in the sketch you’ll see the arrow.


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How does that resolve the question about the two Bend approaches? In one, the MAP isn't there but you see the arrow.

It's close though, the answer is the date of the chart. It was sometime in 2012 the Charting group decided to remove the arrow if the sketch did not show the MAP itself. One of those charts was last amended in 2008, before the change. 

If you want to read about the change, it is discussed here...

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/acf/media/RDs/12-02-257_simplification_and_stndz_FAC_in_airport_sketch.pdf

Edited February 26, 2019 by midlifeflyer

[xcrmckenna]

How does that resolve the question about the two Bend approaches? In one, the MAP isn't there but you see the arrow.
It's close though, the answer is the date of the chart. It was sometime in 2012 the Charting group decided to remove the arrow if the sketch did not show the MAP itself. One of those charts was last amended in 2008, before the change. 
If you want to read about the change, it is discussed here...
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/acf/media/RDs/12-02-257_simplification_and_stndz_FAC_in_airport_sketch.pdf

Sorry, I was paraphrasing. I posted that link on the #10 comment of the thread. Thanks


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[midlifeflyer]

1 minute ago, xcrmckenna said:

Sorry, I was paraphrasing. I posted that link on the #10 comment of the thread. Thanks


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No, I'm sorry. Missed the link you provided or I would have made my comment quoting it.

Edited February 26, 2019 by midlifeflyer

[xcrmckenna]

No, I'm sorry. Missed the link you provided or I would have made my comment quoting it.

It’s all good. I’m glad you guys were helping answer my question.


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[Marauder]

1 hour ago, xcrmckenna said:

It’s all good. I’m glad you guys were helping answer my question.


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Hey, if these guys couldn't answer your questions, we all know who can. JERRY W!

[jaylw314]

14 hours ago, xcrmckenna said:

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/acf/media/RDs/12-02-257_simplification_and_stndz_FAC_in_airport_sketch.pdf?fbclid=IwAR19-51xl_EG6yXnnNDv-pB7W4s5BUiTEJr_ZD06fzzYek7bTl8q0UQyP9w


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Nice find, Charles!  I was wondering that myself and had no answers

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

Nice find, Charles!  I was wondering that myself and had no answers

If one follows those, one can usually find the genesis of most changes to FAA approach charts.

[Bob - S50]

Ya know, being the troublemaker that I am, I did not read it that way.  Here is a quote from the recommendation:

"In order to standardize the depiction of this note, and because this information is already clearly presented in the profile area of the chart, Terminal recommends that only the final approach course track with the course value be shown on the airport sketch for all charts for which the MAP falls within the area of the sketch."

To me that reads that in the past, if the MAP laid within the airport sketch they would depict not only the course, but the distance as well.  They recommended getting rid of the distance info.  That implies that there are some sketches with an arrow in which the MAP does not fall on the sketch.

I'm not convinced that the MAP location is the determining factor for whether or not the arrow is there.

I'll sacrifice myself and post the question on BeechTalk and let you know what they say.

[xcrmckenna]

Ya know, being the troublemaker that I am, I did not read it that way.  Here is a quote from the recommendation:
"In order to standardize the depiction of this note, and because this information is already clearly presented in the profile area of the chart, Terminal recommends that only the final approach course track with the course value be shown on the airport sketch for all charts for which the MAP falls within the area of the sketch."
To me that reads that in the past, if the MAP laid within the airport sketch they would depict not only the course, but the distance as well.  They recommended getting rid of the distance info.  That implies that there are some sketches with an arrow in which the MAP does not fall on the sketch.
I'm not convinced that the MAP location is the determining factor for whether or not the arrow is there.
I'll sacrifice myself and post the question on BeechTalk and let you know what they say.

I think it still falls back in the FAA user guide where it says some details will not always be used.

Meaning to me sometimes they want it there and sometimes they don’t. Not necessarily every sketch will be universal. I’m almost betting it’s when they have room they’ll depict it or if they think about it. I have an email into our local FSDO for their clarification.



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[midlifeflyer]

17 hours ago, xcrmckenna said:

 

I think it still falls back in the FAA user guide where it says some details will not always be used.

Meaning to me sometimes they want it there and sometimes they don’t. Not necessarily every sketch will be universal. I’m almost betting it’s when they have room they’ll depict it or if they think about it. I have an email into our local FSDO for their clarification.



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Better choice for that email is the FAA Charting group. https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/procedures/application/?event=email.contact&details=General Comments

They tend to be pretty responsive. It would be rare for a FSDO answer on a question like this to be more than a guess

Edited February 27, 2019 by midlifeflyer