Spark Plugs -- Massive or Fine Wire

[MisfitSELF]

I tried to search this site for discussions concerning Massive Electrode vs Fine Wire.  I remember seeing something on this a year or so ago but I was unable to find it.  Can someone help me out with a link?  (or perhaps we start a whole new thread here rehashing old ground?)

My specifics.  I own a 1984 M20J with the IO-360-A3B6.  I'm currently running massive electrode with Slick mags and will have my next annual in 3 months or so.  I remember last annual, when I had the plugs out that the electrodes were looking a bit "footballish"  So I may be replacing the plugs this year and am considering going with fine wire and wanted to find out what the Mooney hive minds thinks about one type vs another...

 

Bruce

[Bryan]

I went Tempest finewire this past year and every aspect of my engine improved: starting, idling, cruise, and LOP operations.

M20K 252

[gsxrpilot]

Tempest Fines - done. 

Mine are at 500 hours without a single fouled plug ever.

[Marauder]

Tempest fine wires here. Solid plugs over the Champion massives I had.


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[Hank]

Champion massives work well in my O-360. I may have fouled a plug five or six years ago . . . Just lean hard on the ground, it's not a problem.

Massive vs. Fine Wire is almost as religious a topic here as LOP vs. ROP. Lots of opinions, proclaimed loudly, but few conversions.

Enjoy flying your J!  

[carusoam]

Cost may be an issue...?

In that case... consider putting the new fine wires in the bottom plug holes...

The bottoms are more sensitive to things that fall with gravity.... oil drips and lead balls...

The Tempest fine wires do not have a perfect history... but there customer service was pretty quick to respond.

Champion has been on my dislike list for a very long time... the increasing resistance until the plugs don’t work has been an annoyance for years.... it took a long time for Champion to recognize their problem...

Tempest has lost a few center electrodes lately... plenty of pics to see on MS...

 

use the search function... there has to be hundreds of pages on this topic... 

Best regards,

-a-

[Bryan]

Mine lost a center electrode recently but Tempest promptly sent me a new one.

[Yetti]

23 minutes ago, Bryan said:

Mine lost a center electrode recently but Tempest promptly sent me a new one.

 

Only one?  They sent me a whole set of massives.   The issue was they had outsource the welding of the center electrodes.  Since then have brought that in house.  

[jaylw314]

General consensus seems to have been go for fine wires if you have the money, but Tempest massive electrodes (or BY electrodes if appropriate) if you don't.

Cost effectiveness is about the same for fine wires (3x the cost and 3x the life).

People seem to notice some operational benefits from fine wires, but dropping one has 3x the consequences.

No particular problems mixing fine wires with massives if you don't want to invest all at once (just warn your mechanic!)

[Guest]

I just replaced 16 Champion fine wire plugs that were in the engine when I bought the plane,  with 16 Tempest fine wire plugs.  It seems Champion has troubles in the fine wire line up as well, half of them had high resistance and the other half had cracked side electrodes.

Clarence

[Danb]

Same here doc, My plane came with massive s from the factory, put in Champs fine wire’s after a couple years , removed them(still in a box 200 hrs) and replaced with tempest fine wires, all flight characteristics are better with the TFWires

[Bob_Belville]

Tempest fine wires. This was the very first change I made when I bought my '66E 7 years ago after 3 months ownership. (I ran fine wires in my first E and got over 1000 hours out of them.) This time I have over 400 hours and they still look fine. I run LOP in cruise and very ROP doing formation and during a FR, IPC at PPP last weekend. Plugs don't seem to care, I've had zero fouled plugs with the UREM 38S Tempests.

[Yetti]

fouling is about the loose nut behind the yoke, not the plug.

[Bob_Belville]

4 minutes ago, Yetti said:

fouling is about the loose nut behind the yoke, not the plug.

Really? Like to back that analysis up? 

Lot's of folks report that going to fine wire eliminated experiencing fouling. Same "nut", different results.

[smccray]

12 hours ago, MisfitSELF said:

I tried to search this site for discussions concerning Massive Electrode vs Fine Wire.  I remember seeing something on this a year or so ago but I was unable to find it.  Can someone help me out with a link?  (or perhaps we start a whole new thread here rehashing old ground?)

My specifics.  I own a 1984 M20J with the IO-360-A3B6.  I'm currently running massive electrode with Slick mags and will have my next annual in 3 months or so.  I remember last annual, when I had the plugs out that the electrodes were looking a bit "footballish"  So I may be replacing the plugs this year and am considering going with fine wire and wanted to find out what the Mooney hive minds thinks about one type vs another...

 

Bruce

I went through the same thing with my J with an IO360A3B6.  When I first bought the plane I had challenges with the ignition system that were addressed progressively.  I ended up sending the Mags out for IRAN, replaced the ignition harness.  The plane ran much better at that point, but I had to replace the plugs shortly thereafter I went through the same decision making process you're going through right now.  I went with tempest fine wires and the plane immediately ran smoother.  Faced with the same decision again I would go with fine wires.

[Yetti]

I have been running massives for 3 years and never fouled one.    Even with an oily cylinder on #4.  There was  a short stint with fine wires till they got kicked to the curb for failing center electrodes.

[PT20J]

I’ve got a recent factory rebuilt A3B6 with massives. Starts, idles, cruises fine. Never fouls. Wonder if the fine wires help mostly when cylinders wear and more oil gets past rings?

On the radials, we put fine wires in back and massives in the front since rear is harder to access and we don’t want to service them as often. We have to pull the fronts out for compression check so it’s no problem to gap them. They both seem to work fine. 

 

[KSMooniac]

Tempest fines! They really do run smoother, especially LOP. They don't really need any service, either, beyond looking at them once a year.

Champion lost their way several years ago and I wouldn't install their plugs for free now.

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[Parker_Woodruff]

Tempest Fine Wires only.

[Bob_Belville]

1 hour ago, Yetti said:

I have been running massives for 3 years and never fouled one.    Even with an oily cylinder on #4.  There was  a short stint with fine wires till they got kicked to the curb for failing center electrodes.

And from your fairly limited personal experience you conclude and declare that anyone whose experience is the opposite is nuts?  (ISTM that line of reasoning is more appropriate to religion or politics where we get to hold tight to our own version of reality and write off the other guy as a heretic or a communist.)

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, Bob_Belville said:

Really? Like to back that analysis up? 

Lot's of folks report that going to fine wire eliminated experiencing fouling. Same "nut", different results.

I can give you my runup data.  On the ground I lean to a max RPM of 1200, and (when practical) I run the engine at 1600 RPM for 20 sec leaned out before shutdown.  I use Tempest FW on the left mag plugs, and massives on the right mag plugs, and I never see fouling on either one.

[Igor_U]

13 hours ago, Bryan said:

Mine lost a center electrode recently but Tempest promptly sent me a new one.

 

Bryan,

Cost of the spark plug (or full set) would not be my concern in this case but where did that center electrode ended up! Do you know, by any chance? Did you, or A&P borescope cylinder or such?

I'd be really curious how often this happens and what others would do.

BTW, I run massive Tempests for few years now, after 7 out of 8 Champions showed very high resistance at the annual (day after one missed on a takeoff and got my attention).

 

 

[ArtVandelay]

and (when practical) I run the engine at 1600 RPM for 20 sec leaned out before shutdown.

I believe that’s a Lycoming recommendation to prevent morning sickness, insuring valve stems get ample oil.


Tom

[Kmac]

Last year I replaced my lower plugs with Tempest UREM37BY's (massive electrode but protruding).  I replaced 12 year old Champion fine wires.  I did so because after purchasing I continuously fouled the plugs.  Along with learning to lean aggressively for taxiing I researched the plugs and realized a protruding electrode would be smarter because the combustion begins deeper in the cylinder and more likely thoroughly uses all of the fuel before the next stroke.  I have had no problems with fouling or run-ups since replacement.  

Photo courtesy of google...

Edited February 15, 2019 by Kmac
spelling, picture addition

[Bryan]

25 minutes ago, Igor_U said:

Bryan,

Cost of the spark plug (or full set) would not be my concern in this case but where did that center electrode ended up! Do you know, by any chance? Did you, or A&P borescope cylinder or such?

I'd be really curious how often this happens and what others would do.

I had the same concerns. At each annual they borescope the engine and had already done that when this was found (annual last month) but after seeing this they went in and looked further using the scope: nothing could be found nor ill effects apparent with the second scope. Checked filter and borescoped the turbo and no sign. JD at SWTA spent a lot of time trying to determine cause and effect.

I don’t know what is worse: finding something or not.  We sent it in for further analysis to Tempest. Awaiting those results. Maybe it burned up. Also reviewing engine log data to see if we could determine a date it happened.

JD told me that he he seen this maybe once before but not often by any stretch. He works on a lot of Mooney engines being a Texas Mooney Service Center.