Trio Pro Pilot For M20 Mooneys

[NJMac]

Maybe several of us should work together and get our own STC, [mention=7497]Sabremech[/mention] and [mention=7545]takair[/mention]has the experience dealing with the ACO and we have the knowledge and resources as a group to cover all models. since there is little change in the overall design once the basic design is complete the tweaks for the different models should be minor. 
Brian

We can call ourselves the STC Club, LLC

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[Sabremech]

I’m all in for the TruTrak for my 66 C as soon as it’s approved. It has enough features for me and is priced right. 

1 hour ago, orionflt said:

Maybe several of us should work together and get our own STC, @Sabremech and @takairhas the experience dealing with the ACO and we have the knowledge and resources as a group to cover all models. since there is little change in the overall design once the basic design is complete the tweaks for the different models should be minor. 

Brian

I don’t think I have enough hair left to tackle this type of STC.

David

[kris_adams]

3 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Evidently they're not. As he said, it's just a part time gig and he has another much more important job. This is a side hobby, and the way they're going about it, will never be more than that.

for sure...too many times I heard this was a side hustle...no thanks.  Best of luck to them though

[Danb]

Holy crap what a sensitive chap, hard to build a business with soft jeans, not genes. Dismiss the complete Mooney group based on remarks from a few folks. 

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, Sabremech said:

I’m all in for the TruTrak for my 66 C as soon as it’s approved. It has enough features for me and is priced right. 

I don’t think I have enough hair left to tackle this type of STC.

David

This is Dr Seuss a Zed one hair upon their head.

[Marauder]

Maybe several of us should work together and get our own STC, [mention=7497]Sabremech[/mention] and [mention=7545]takair[/mention]has the experience dealing with the ACO and we have the knowledge and resources as a group to cover all models. since there is little change in the overall design once the basic design is complete the tweaks for the different models should be minor. 
Brian

That’s a great idea. I will your parts supplier. Now where did I leave that Harbor Fright coupon?


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[orionflt]

2 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

That’s a great idea. I will your parts supplier. Now where did I leave that Harbor Fright coupon?


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they are probably with your coffee mug

Brian

[Marauder]

1 hour ago, orionflt said:

they are probably with your coffee mug

Brian

I haven't seen a ransom note for my coffee cup yet, so I expect you're probably using it as a spittoon. I don't know why I just don't fly some of the approaches i do over in your neck of the woods and drop in a get that cup?! 

[Sabremech]

I think Trio Avionics should persue their own STC for the Mooney as well as others and leave out the middle man. They would be able to work at it full time. 

David

[wcb]

I find it curious on how companies do their demographics.  If marketing certified aircraft, I certainly understand why a company would go after the Cessna market.  Just a very quick search can give you a rough understanding of the market.  Controller currently has listed around 304 Cessna's for sale.  Piper has 277 and the next largest group is Cirrus (but take them out because most are newer and not doing as many upgrades).  Beech has 121 and next is MOONEY AT 105.  Behind Mooney is all really irrelevant in the grand scheme of markets.  You have Diamond (with 44) again a lot like Cirrus where most are not being upgraded.  Next is American Champion at 20 and Extra Aircraft at 19 then it really starts to really then out with Socata at 15 and Grumman at 12 and Waco at 11 (The rest are in low double digits).

 

Why would anyone really market to a market like the Grumman or Socata or Waco over the Mooney?  (It boils down to Money.  In this case someone with Grumman stepped up with the $$ to get one done.  Nobody with a Mooney was willing to do it especially knowing there are and will be options.  But, is this short sighted saying "I will just not go after the market at all" when looking at the size?)

Honestly why would anyone market any product to anything below the Mooney?

 

Note: I just don't mean in this case but in G, TT, S, A, and all other companies as well.

[Bob - S50]

1 hour ago, wcb said:

I find it curious on how companies do their demographics.  If marketing certified aircraft, I certainly understand why a company would go after the Cessna market.  Just a very quick search can give you a rough understanding of the market.  Controller currently has listed around 304 Cessna's for sale.  Piper has 277 and the next largest group is Cirrus (but take them out because most are newer and not doing as many upgrades).  Beech has 121 and next is MOONEY AT 105.  Behind Mooney is all really irrelevant in the grand scheme of markets.  You have Diamond (with 44) again a lot like Cirrus where most are not being upgraded.  Next is American Champion at 20 and Extra Aircraft at 19 then it really starts to really then out with Socata at 15 and Grumman at 12 and Waco at 11 (The rest are in low double digits).

 

Why would anyone really market to a market like the Grumman or Socata or Waco over the Mooney?  (It boils down to Money.  In this case someone with Grumman stepped up with the $$ to get one done.  Nobody with a Mooney was willing to do it especially knowing there are and will be options.  But, is this short sighted saying "I will just not go after the market at all" when looking at the size?)

Honestly why would anyone market any product to anything below the Mooney?

 

Note: I just don't mean in this case but in G, TT, S, A, and all other companies as well.

I can see why they would go after other aircraft.  In particular I could see why they would go after lower performance aircraft.  Those of us with higher performance aircraft like a Bonanza or a Mooney may already have an autopilot or may be looking for one that can do it all.  We may not be as interested in what is legally an 'enroute' autopilot.  Our aircraft also tend to cost more which implies we may also be more willing (or less unwilling) to spend more money to get nicer systems.  How many Cub/C150/Cherokee 140 owners out there are installing WAAS GPS units and ADSB IN/OUT units?  Just look at the panels some of us (not me) display here and on BeechTalk.  How many Cessna and Piper owners are spending the money to get panels like that?

It all depends on how you look at the market.  As I've said before, the Trio, TT, and Dynon autopilots are probably fine units.  If I was looking for minimum cost and enroute capability I'd probably get a Trio or TT.  The deal breaker for me was no electric pitch trim servo from any of them.  And I also want an autopilot that can legally fly and instrument approach as soon as I install it, not maybe some time in the future.  The only system that can currently do that is Garmin, King, and STEC.  And I don't want to pour more money into a system which costs me thousands of dollars every time a servo dies.  I can buy a brand new servo for the Garmin for less than it costs to overhaul or IRAN a King servo.

[wcb]

+1 on the Trim servo

[glbtrottr]

Meh.  I worked for EMC (now Dell) for well over a decade.  It's a very different culture; sales believes 100% is their fair share.  I witnessed sales reps punching customers, vehicles being driven into pools at parties, people putting their head through partitioned walls for sales managers and the like.  We were modern day pirates.  I enjoyed it in many ways, but the culture is not your average thing - your seniority was measured by your badge number.  Sales puppies had a comp plan of $150k, regular reps were between 225/275k a year, and the numbers went up from there; presales people commonly made 225 or more, and for practicing your scripting and pitching skills, that was not a bad living - but not as fun as flying a mooney. 

Curiously, I'm in Oxnard quite a bit and would have been happy to offer my airplane for them to do what they needed to - considering it's a K model, J's and K's cover a substantial amount of  market.  You never know;  perhaps the lad was having a bad day, and the job can be all consuming.  

[steingar]

2 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

I can see why they would go after other aircraft.  In particular I could see why they would go after lower performance aircraft.  Those of us with higher performance aircraft like a Bonanza or a Mooney may already have an autopilot or may be looking for one that can do it all.  We may not be as interested in what is legally an 'enroute' autopilot.  Our aircraft also tend to cost more which implies we may also be more willing (or less unwilling) to spend more money to get nicer systems.  How many Cub/C150/Cherokee 140 owners out there are installing WAAS GPS units and ADSB IN/OUT units?  Just look at the panels some of us (not me) display here and on BeechTalk.  How many Cessna and Piper owners are spending the money to get panels like that?

 I honestly don't mean to ruffle feathers, but there is something important you're leaving out.  Lots and lots of Cessnas and Pipers are puddle jumpers, something you fly around VFR on the weekends.  Not every Skyhawk or Cherokee needs an autopilot.  Mooneys are traveling machines.  They might be fewer in number, but the majority either have or need an autopilot.  I think company like Trio will make just as much bank with Mooneys as with Cessnas, since Mooney didn't make too many trainers and Cessna did.

Edited January 8, 2019 by steingar

[smccray]

4 hours ago, wcb said:

 Why would anyone really market to a market like the Grumman or Socata or Waco over the Mooney?  (It boils down to Money.  In this case someone with Grumman stepped up with the $$ to get one done.  Nobody with a Mooney was willing to do it especially knowing there are and will be options.  But, is this short sighted saying "I will just not go after the market at all" when looking at the size?)

 Honestly why would anyone market any product to anything below the Mooney?

I agree completely with @Bob - S50

Different airplanes.  A Mooney is a traveling airplane and it deserves a capable autopilot.  A GFC500 and the Dynon (autopilot) represents an autopilot that's part of an integrated system that is highly capable.  The Trio and Trutrack autopilots are stand alone systems that make sense in smaller aircraft.  I'm not saying the autopilots are less capable, I'm saying they don't integrate into an avionics platform.  I have no doubt it's a fine system, but it's a lightweight autopilot.  

The problem for Trio and Trutrack is their competitive position.  Toy airplanes (think J3 cub) don't need an autopilot.  High end single engine pistons (think SR22) have fully integrated systems.  Retrofit avionics are trending towards more integrated systems.  High end airplanes deserve high end systems.  Nothing wrong with the low end autopilots, but it doesn't make much sense for a traveling airplane to have a low end autopilot.  A VFR airplane could use an autopilot, but that's also an plane that doesn't really need an autopilot.

[Steve W]

20 minutes ago, smccray said:

I agree completely with @Bob - S50

Different airplanes.  A Mooney is a traveling airplane and it deserves a capable autopilot.  A GFC500 and the Dynon (autopilot) represents an autopilot that's part of an integrated system that is highly capable.  The Trio and Trutrack autopilots are stand alone systems that make sense in smaller aircraft.  I'm not saying the autopilots are less capable, I'm saying they don't integrate into an avionics platform.  I have no doubt it's a fine system, but it's a lightweight autopilot.  

The problem for Trio and Trutrack is their competitive position.  Toy airplanes (think J3 cub) don't need an autopilot.  High end single engine pistons (think SR22) have fully integrated systems.  Retrofit avionics are trending towards more integrated systems.  High end airplanes deserve high end systems.  Nothing wrong with the low end autopilots, but it doesn't make much sense for a traveling airplane to have a low end autopilot.  A VFR airplane could use an autopilot, but that's also an plane that doesn't really need an autopilot.

I see Trio and TruTrak in the area of replacements for the old Cessna Navomatic or other single axis and wing levelers, "I don't need an autopilot but it's sure nice to have sometimes"

The GFC 500 is in an odd space since it's architected similarly to the others but requires the G5s, but can also fly approaches. I think it will do well in the middle ground of the 2 Axis King/Century without altitude preselect or other bells and whistles for people who haven't already chosen their glass.

The new STEC/King/GFC 600 are the top tier for those who already have a full King or STEC or already have glass and want none of the limitations of the lower end models.

Edited January 8, 2019 by Steve W

[smccray]

2 minutes ago, Steve W said:

 I see Trio and TruTrak in the area of replacements for the old Cessna Navomatic or other single axis and wing levelers, "I don't need an autopilot but it's sure nice to have sometimes"

 The GFC 500 is in an odd space since it's architected similarly to the others but requires the G5s, but can also fly approaches. I think it will do well in the middle ground of the 2 Axis King without altitude preselect or other bells and whistles for people who haven't already chosen their glass.

 The new STEC/King/GFC 600 are the top tier for those who already have a full King or STEC or already have glass and want none of the limitations of the lower end models.

Agree.

The challenge is making a business out of Trio and TruTrack autopilots.  Either have to generate a return on profit margin or on volume.  The nature of the business is such that volumes are somewhat limited- low end aircraft that would like to have an autopilot, but not a full featured autopilot, and at the same time where the owner has both the ability and willingness to buy the system.  Profit margin is limited as the system must sell at a discount to the GFC500.  A business with a narrow market and significant pricing pressure is a significant challenge.

[NJMac]

Guys, dont reply to this thread. Email off line.

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[Marauder]

It comes down to numbers. Don was asking about the GFC 600 for the Bravo. What is the entire M sold base? 300 maybe 400 planes? How many of those 300 planes will buy the GFC 600?

GFC 500 for the Cessna 172. Over 44,000 sold. Even if only 5% bought the GFC 500 and every Bravo owner bought the GFC 600 it would a 3:1 ROI for the 500. I know where I would spend my certification dollars if I were Garmin.

And don’t forget the downstream effect, selling 2,200 GFC 500s is a lot more business for the avionics shops than 300 GFC 600 installs.




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[Navi]

On ‎1‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 11:59 PM, gacoon said:

What I want to see is the interface functional specs for Aspen unit and TruTrac/trio.  I,d like to see how the Aspen would improve the button pushing. 

Latest info , as of early January,  

 TT<>Aspen , -  heading bug , altitude bug, baro sync.  If, -  ILS, GPSWAAS, VOR, Mag heading (with magnetometer) GS, are fed into the Aspen, (digitally or analogue with an adaptor,)  it will translate any of these you select and direct the TruTrac vertically and laterally through the ARINC 429 data stream.

TruTrak <>G5,  heading bug.  MAYBE baro sync and alt sync.   (Garmin is not anxious at all to integrate with others, and that should be no surprise to any here)...  The TT<>Aspen  integration  is working in some experimental aircraft, Aspen and TT have been co-operatively working on it for some time.

Trio,  --   Integration similar to TT is possible, but no one is very forthcoming  with information .

The Aspen E5<> TT integration relegates the TT control head to ON-Off status only for many functions.

Navi

[Navi]

On ‎1‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 12:22 PM, Bob - S50 said:

If you are considering a 2 servo system, I don't see why the installation of one brand should take much longer than another.  Should take about the same amount of time to mount the servos and run wiring to them.  Should take about the same amount of time to run wiring to the GPS unit.  Should take about the same amount of time to mount the unit itself. 

The only differences I see would be if you are mounting more boxes to give one brand more capability than another.  The one exception might be that Garmin requires the GAD29 or GAD29B between the GPS and G5 while I don't believe the others have an equivalent box.

But differences could include:

GMU11 for Garmin so it will display magnetic heading while the others only do ground track.

G5 required for Garmin to give you a flight director/VNAV/visual heading bug/visual altitude bug/autopilot annunciator/secondary airspeed/secondary heading/secondary altitude/secondary VSI/the brains for the autopilot.  This would in fact involve several more hours.  However, it would take the same number of hours to mount it with another system if the owner wanted to replace their AI.  They just wouldn't get all the benefits.

>>>If you are considering a 2 servo system, I don't see why the installation of one brand should take much longer than another.  Should take about the same amount of time to mount the servos and run wiring to them.  Should take about the same amount of time to run wiring to the GPS unit.  Should take about the same amount of time to mount the unit itself.

Previous experience to date is with 172s and PA-28s.

Trio mounts the pitch servo in the tail, attached to the balance beam in the PA-28s. It is a BEAR of a job crawling back there in the tailcone and if your PA-28 does NOT have the ELT access hole back there to pass parts and tools in, it is worse. The roll servo mounts in the wing in both the Cessna and the Cherokee, and it is like building a ship in a bottle. (for some Cherokees they moved the roll servo under the seat.) The Cherokee stabilator has to be removed and rebalanced with the roll servo attachments mounted on the balance beam. Copious Shop hours are consumed, with two persons needed for a  lot of the time.. .

Running wiring out the wing takes far more time than to the space under the back seat.

In contrast, the TruTrac installation is "Brilliantly clever".  (words of others) Nothing has to be moved. It is all under the rear seat. Take the seats out,  sit down and go to work. 2 People are needed for only 20 minutes of the total install time..  Instructions are simple and clear. The Roll Servo bracket mounts the same as the Century I, already installed in many planes.  Remove the old, place the new TT mount and match drill.

The Garmin plan for the PA-28s involves moving the battery on many models, It's a big job needing new cables mounts and WT & B..   Hoping the Mooneys have a similar design in the back seat area that would make it easy as well, but conversation with Corey at TruTrak may sort that out.. I understand that their Mooney is well into the flight testing with the TT system installed and it's flying the plane very well.

You are correct Bob, the rest (AP disco, circuit breaker, master switch, data connections) are the same.

Nav

Edited January 9, 2019 by Navi
Typo

[Sandman993]

Was just at an Avionics shop in Texas last Friday...a friend of mine is having a new 20/20 transponder installed there. Shop owner estimate for 2 G'5s,  the Garmin autopilot installed and not including sales tax is 23,000. He mentioned the Garmin autopilot will work with one G5, but it would be limited performance. In other words, not full capability. And add an additional $1700 for the trim servo...plus additional for install.

I personally look forward to the Pro Pilot and wait eagerly for it's certification for my ship. Wish Texas weren't so far away from them, or I would jump at the chance to offer my plane to facilitate the process. I think the Pro Pilot is great!

[aviatoreb]

8 minutes ago, Sandman993 said:

Was just at an Avionics shop in Texas last Friday...a friend of mine is having a new 20/20 transponder installed there. Shop owner estimate for 2 G'5s,  the Garmin autopilot installed and not including sales tax is 23,000. He mentioned the Garmin autopilot will work with one G5, but it would be limited performance. In other words, not full capability. And add an additional $1700 for the trim servo...plus additional for install.

I personally look forward to the Pro Pilot and wait eagerly for it's certification for my ship. Wish Texas weren't so far away from them, or I would jump at the chance to offer my plane to facilitate the process. I think the Pro Pilot is great!

Sounds as if he/she is quoting at least 10k of install cost.  100hrs?

I was guessing from the following website that closer to 19k including trim would be possible. https://avionics-laf.com/products/garmin-gfc500-autopilot-9-995-00-installed

[ArtVandelay]

Sounds as if he/she is quoting at least 10k of install cost.  100hrs?
I was guessing from the following website that closer to 19k including trim would be possible. https://avionics-laf.com/products/garmin-gfc500-autopilot-9-995-00-installed

Wow, they are scheduled out until end of the year.


Tom

[aviatoreb]

1 minute ago, ArtVandelay said:

Wow, they are scheduled out until end of the year.


Tom

Wow - I didn't see that.  I figured I might use them if no one else was in the price ball park.

Meanwhile... if those posted prices are true - then perhaps that reflects what can be done?