Opinions on this M20F

[M20 Ogler]

http://www.skywagons.com/airplanes-forsale/1967-mooney-m20f-53500-here-placerville-n3270f

Hi Mooneyspace,

I’m a lurker who is looking to buy his first plane soon. My mission is to find something that I can use to keep ifr current and do some traveling with the wife. I thought this M20F looked like it would accomplish that and be affordable enough that I’d have leftover funds I could use for future upgrades/repairs.

I’m a low time pilot with about 300 hours and an instrument rating, but I do have some experience in Mooney’s with about 20 hours logged in a 201. 

[KSMooniac]

At first glance price seems high to me given how vintage it currently is, and the engine time. It will need ADS-B out pretty soon at a bare minimum. For that price, IMO, it ought to have at least one major modern upgrade, or a newish engine. (Ie autopilot, WAAS GPS, standard panel, engine monitor, new interior, etc)

However, TT is low and if truly a no-damage, no-corrosion bird that is very nice, as is that useful load. Just know that you could spend another 50k on modernisation and make it worth 65 or 70k. It all depends on what you want to do and how long you want to keep it.

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[gsxrpilot]

Be careful with Skywagons. I'd make sure that you can take the plane to either TopGun or LASAR for a thorough pre-buy inspection.

I'm also not a fan of buying Mooneys without autopilots or moving map GPS. Of course finding one is not super easy to do, but if you do find one, you'll likely save 50% to 70% over the cost upgrading this one.

Otherwise, it looks nice.

[M20 Ogler]

Thanks 

It does have an Accutrack II Autopilot with Vacuum PC Button.

I also agree about the price, if the owner doesn’t want to negotiate then I guess it isn’t meant to be and I’ll keep looking. 

If they don’t let me take it to top gun I do know an A&P who is familiar with Mooney’s and is willing to travel to do a pre buy inspection. 

Maybe I shouldn’t admit this but I like that vintage paint scheme. 

[M20F]

10 minutes ago, M20 Ogler said:

Maybe I shouldn’t admit this but I like that vintage paint scheme. 

A paint job is fairly inexpensive.  Radios, autopilot, etc. are not.  I would put this plane at about $40k assuming no glaring issues. 

[Shadrach]

Well I think it's beautiful!!!...but then I'm a bit biased.  Mine came off the assembly line 59 units later.  I bet it was sold new by Henry Webber Aircraft in Lancaster, PA.

They're almost identical in and out. I have dual KX165s instead of 155s. I have 9lbs more useful load.

I had 200hrs in various aircraft (mostly fixed gear) when I started flying mine.  Insurance required 5hrs of dual with no passenger restrictions after.  I can't speak to its condition or sales price.  I will say that it looks well preserved.  There are advantages to buying an airframe thats never been slathered in paint stripper.

That spinner needs to be stripped and polished to make it a real looker!

 

[gsxrpilot]

22 minutes ago, M20 Ogler said:

If they don’t let me take it to top gun I do know an A&P who is familiar with Mooney’s and is willing to travel to do a pre buy inspection. 

Just be careful. If they don't let you take it to TopGun... I be afraid they've got something to hide. There have been some other less than satisfied customers of theirs on this forum.

If they say, sure no problem, you can take it to TopGun... and then you want to use your guy, fine.

[BigD]

I bought my 1965 M20C from SkyWagons, back in March. I would be happy to share details on the phone if you like. Just PM me. I will say that my plane has been great, and that Mark at Skywagons was honest, courteous, and a very nice guy. I would have no problems buying another plane from him. He had no issues with me taking my plane to Top Gun (he actually flew it over for me no charge). I think it’s important to remember that aircraft brokers buy planes (yours looks familiar) that are on open market, and flip them. They also sell people’s planes for them for a markup. SkyWagons moves a good amount of metal and in my case I am very happy with the plane they showed me and sold me. Mark treated me and my family right and we have a great bird we are flying. I recommend him highly. I know everyone has different experiences- just my two cents.


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[BigD]

...of course I’m partial to the old paint jobs. I like yours! I like the old leather-looking seats too. Rawhide!


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[Yetti]

Saying it is a good platform to build from and then not pricing it that way is strange. You are going to need the 10Amu for "things that break"  And 10amu for things that need to be done right off the bat.  New hoses, new tires, ADSB.  You really want to know what year the cam is.   It looks to be right in the bad metallurgy years.

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Yetti said:

Saying it is a good platform to build from and then not pricing it that way is strange. You are going to need the 10Amu for "things that break"  And 10amu for things that need to be done right off the bat.  New hoses, new tires, ADSB.  You really want to know what year the cam is.   It looks to be right in the bad metallurgy years.

yeah early 90s forward we’re dodgy years for Lycoming. Nevertheless,  if the cam hasn’t spalled in the last 26yrs, it’s likely going to be fine for a quite a few more. I think this bird is overpriced for engine time and equipment. However, I also think the crop of low time, unmolested examples is getting smaller and smaller. Some folks like a well preserved time capsule. 

Edited November 21, 2018 by Shadrach

[skydvrboy]

I don't have near the experience that these other guys have, but the asking price makes me feel REAL good about how much I paid for mine. 

[Prior owner]

I too have found Mark at Skywagons to be a straight shooter..I’ve dealt with him on a couple of occasions and he never tried to hide anything from me...quite the opposite actually.

[Dream to fly]

I bought a 1967 F model with electric gear two years ago for 52k. Had pretty much the same equipment and story behind it. Mine had nice paint and home owner new interior. Lipstick on a pig. I would be wary. My nightmare continues and I'm well past the 135k mark. Skip the prebuy go for a full blown annual. Remove side panels every access cover and skin that you can. Examine everything. If it checks out then decide.

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[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, Dream to fly said:

I bought a 1967 F model with electric gear two years ago for 52k. Had pretty much the same equipment and story behind it. Mine had nice paint and home owner new interior. Lipstick on a pig. I would be wary. My nightmare continues and I'm well past the 135k mark. Skip the prebuy go for a full blown annual. Remove side panels every access cover and skin that you can. Examine everything. If it checks out then decide.

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Do you have an ongoing thread documenting your experiences? I’m sorry you’ve had such a challenging ownership experience.

[M20 Ogler]

I wonder if doing an oil sample analysis would be helpful for detecting cam spalling or any other engine issues. Is an oil analysis common for a prebuy? Maybe I should do one first before proceeding further on which ever plane I end up focusing on. 

[DXB]

54 minutes ago, M20 Ogler said:

I wonder if doing an oil sample analysis would be helpful for detecting cam spalling or any other engine issues. Is an oil analysis common for a prebuy? Maybe I should do one first before proceeding further on which ever plane I end up focusing on. 

If there are multiple oil analyses available from recent oil changes, I’d want to see them.   As a single spot check on a plane that has been sitting, probably very little value added for you - just some added worry over Fe and Al, which will inevitably be elevated, but tell you nothing about the cam/lifters or the long term prognosis for the engine.

[gsxrpilot]

I'm glad to hear of the good experiences with Skywagons. It sounds like they're heading in the right direction.

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, M20 Ogler said:

I wonder if doing an oil sample analysis would be helpful for detecting cam spalling or any other engine issues. Is an oil analysis common for a prebuy? Maybe I should do one first before proceeding further on which ever plane I end up focusing on. 

It can be helpful but it’s really for establishing trends. By rights this engine should be priced as run out. If it were a low time engine I might have a different approach but at 12XXhrs 26 years, pretend it’s gone when negotiating price. Were the tanks recently done? I see the access panels were recently removed. Has it been flying recently? Have you flown the aircraft? Is someone else flying it regularly?

Edited November 21, 2018 by Shadrach

[Dream to fly]

Do you have an ongoing thread documenting your experiences? I’m sorry you’ve had such a challenging ownership experience.

There are several threads not just one. I thought I was doing right and I had two separate APs do a prebuy and I searched for more than a year. The catch was I hired general repair APs to look at the plane not Mooney specific. That was where the problems started. I'm glad I am an Auto/Diesel tech and have an education and experience in wrenching otherwise I would have never been able to fix it.

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[carusoam]

Ogler,

Is this plane currently flying?

First Go See the plane...

The pictures and descriptions are not doing it any justice...

I wouldnt pay any extra for a ‘quality patina’

And I know what they mean by this, but the way they say it requires some additional fact checking... ‘Recent Modern Format Gear Rubbers’

Who would use the old firestone gear donuts/biscuits?

To see cam/follower spalling requires seeing it...

or catching the bits in a screen/filter...

oil analysis can work over time... it is not a spot check... See its history... hard to do for a plane that doesn’t fly...

This is what makes buying a plane that has been sitting a challenge...

A few ways some people handle this....

1) negotiate the price...

2) take the risk...

3) fly the plane...

4) look back and assess the situation...

5) Did you get lucky?

Some planes can be diamonds in the rough... but are best to be harvested by somebody else.

If you are a low time pilot, or first time owner, or haven’t OH’d an engine before....  it May take some serious AMUs to get things flying...

Taking financial risk is OK when you keep both eyes open...

Old machines don’t come with a warranty... is the risk / reward balanced?

Its a very personal decision...  the phrase used often... ‘is it worth it..?’

Best regards,

-a-

[FloridaMan]

Price seems a bit high. The M20F with manual gear, in my opinion, is the most enjoyable Mooney to hand fly. I put 1100 hours on mine before buying the Rocket. I like the autopilot on the Rocket, but never used the wing leveler and would not have used an autopilot on the F if it had a 2-axis; I'd just fly it with my feet most of the time and rest my hands on the center of the yoke. 

[Shadrach]

Also, as to the metallurgy discussion.  This engine was factory rebuilt in 1992.  It's entirely likely the cam and crank came from much older engines.  File this under crap shoot.  If it's performing well, no reason not to keep running it.  The thing I dislike most about this engine is that it's been flown for 26 years and 1242hrs with a single probe EGT and CHT.  The JPI FF is nice to have but in my opinion far less important than comprehensive EGT/CHT and oil temp data.  

Edited November 21, 2018 by Shadrach

[M20 Ogler]

Shadrach that polishes spinner belongs on there, thats pretty. 

I’m already glad I joined this forum, maybe this F can be a great plane but my eyes are open to the risk I’m taking and the need to really spend some time getting to know a plane before I commit.

[SantosDumont]

Unless you're going to be flying 1hr legs I'd pass on anything that didn't have GPS coupled autopilot.