Mooney down @ Baker City, OR

[gsxrpilot]

2 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

Pictures tend to make the terrain look flat. It’s hard to tell, need a pirep.

Or Google Earth... It's very flat in all directions from that point.  The airport is sitting in a bit of a valley, but it's a very large valley with very flat fields in all directions.

[BulletsRockts&MissilesOhMy]

A couple witnesses said they saw it spin before it came down, though I'm not sure if they really know what they are describing. Not saying that it isn't possible, but I thought Mooney stability made it pretty hard to get into a spin 

Edited August 15, 2018 by BulletsRockts&MissilesOhMy

[Pritch]

It has been very smoky out here in Oregon and Calif. and you can easily get suckered in to thinking you can see through the stuff and then it has got you. 

Pritch

PS picture is on top at 12.5K and you can't see the ground.

 

[Hank]

4 minutes ago, Pritch said:

It has been very smoky out here in Oregon and Calif. and you can easily get suckered in to thinking you can see through the stuff and then it has got you. 

Pritch

PS picture is on top at 12.5K and you can't see the ground.

 

Looks like a regular summer day in the South, except here it's haze. I once logged 0.3 Actual on  a VFR descent when everything whited out until the hilltops magically appeared, suspended in white nothingness. By 3000 msl, visibility was >10 miles, but it was quite the surprise.

[takair]

3 hours ago, BulletsRockts&MissilesOhMy said:

A couple witnesses said they saw it spin before it came down, though I'm not sure if they really know what they are describing. Not saying that it isn't possible, but I thought Mooney stability made it pretty hard to get into spin 

I would say a C172 is hard to get into a spin, but I would not say the same of a Mooney.  Fly the numbers /AOA and it is fine, but an uncoordinated stall or an accelerated stall can get you there if you don’t correct it quickly.

[M20C_AV8R]

I am so sorry to hear this, thoughts and prayers to their families and friends

[Stephen]

19 hours ago, BulletsRockts&MissilesOhMy said:

A couple witnesses said they saw it spin before it came down, though I'm not sure if they really know what they are describing. Not saying that it isn't possible, but I thought Mooney stability made it pretty hard to get into a spin 

Aircraft picture looks exactly like a clockwise spin in ... looks like it struck in a nose down attitude and tail seems torqued to the left (clockwise spin). I had a friend go in the same way and that is exactly how his aircraft looked as well as others I have seen. VERY sad. I personally really do like the idea of integrating 1) coordinated flight practice/discipline and 2) ( I know they are mildly controversial)  an AoA hud in front of your nose w/ audio alert to give you an in your face & ears alert to an impending dangerous condition. 

[M20FanJesse]

That's one thing that Cirrus has, that blue LVL button. Auto pilot or not, hit it, and it sets the aircraft straight and holds altitude. I think other aircraft are starting to incorporate this as well

[M016576]

Just now, M20FanJesse said:

That's one thing that Cirrus has, that blue LVL button. Auto pilot or not, hit it, and it sets the aircraft straight and holds altitude. I think other aircraft are starting to incorporate this as well

Yep- good for recognized spatial D cases, or VFR types that wander into IMC and have the wits to use the system.

Once you’re in a spin, though- I don’t believe it will “auto-recover” for you.  That the pilot will need to do themselves.

[aviatoreb]

52 minutes ago, M20FanJesse said:

That's one thing that Cirrus has, that blue LVL button. Auto pilot or not, hit it, and it sets the aircraft straight and holds altitude. I think other aircraft are starting to incorporate this as well

That is also coming as a feature on a few of the new and to be soon certified digital autopilots.

[aviatoreb]

47 minutes ago, M016576 said:

Yep- good for recognized spatial D cases, or VFR types that wander into IMC and have the wits to use the system.

Once you’re in a spin, though- I don’t believe it will “auto-recover” for you.  That the pilot will need to do themselves.

Right - even if the autopilot were smart enough to know how to correct a spin, which is quite plausible, I don't think these autopilots have actuation authority over the rudder which is a required element to break a spin. And also throttles to retard throttle.

[rpcc]

They have some type of envelope protection I believe.  I hope that would prevent this type of situation.  ADD runs strong in my brain and boy the last string of accidents really scares the crap out of me.  Seemingly landing areas you'd be lucky to have in an engine out emergency, yet for whatever reason loss of control won out.  very sad for all.   The scariest part of all of this is that these were all qualified pilots and I'm sure better than I am.  

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

Right - even if the autopilot were smart enough to know how to correct a spin, which is quite plausible, I don't think these autopilots have actuation authority over the rudder which is a required element to break a spin. And also throttles to retard throttle.

There was an AOPA video a few years ago (I can't get to there video page at work, so I don't have the link), where someone suggested caution with using the rudder during spin recovery.  He demonstrated an eye-popping example where full opposite rudder converted a normal spin to an inverted spin in a half second.  He recommended starting out with only 3 steps--

1. Cut throttle to idle immediately
2. Neutralize elevators and ailerons
3. Recover once the spin stops

Of course, I recall he was an aerobatic instructor, so this might be better if you have plenty of altitude, but if you spin down low, I'm not sure you shouldn't do everything possible to get out the spin in the minimum altitude.  I suppose if it puts you in an inverted spin your not any less in trouble than you were to start. 

Conversely, I think autopilots are good at managing fine adjustments to the controls over time, but not so good at aggressive movements.  You could pre-program in an aggressive recovery maneuver, but what if you set it off in the wrong situation?  That's like having an automatic emergency brake on your car.  If it goes off accidentally while you're on the highway, you're in a world of hurt.  I've had it set off in my car by oncoming traffic around curves, and it's dangerous at worst, absolutely terrifying at best.

TL;DR -- autopilot might not need the rudder to recover, but I'm not sure there's a safe way to program the autopilot to make an aggressive maneuver.

[exM20K]

18 minutes ago, rpcc said:

They have some type of envelope protection I believe.  I hope that would prevent this type of situation.  ADD runs strong in my brain and boy the last string of accidents really scares the crap out of me.  Seemingly landing areas you'd be lucky to have in an engine out emergency, yet for whatever reason loss of control won out.  very sad for all.   The scariest part of all of this is that these were all qualified pilots and I'm sure better than I am.  

That's a different feature set than the wing-level button. GarminESP is showing up on more and more new planes.  It includes a "stick pusher" functionality when pilot exceeds some bank angle.  I've flown with it on DA62, and it works, though I not sure how well it would work at pattern altitude if the pilot suddenly cranks in a bunch of bank and/or excessive yaw.

-dan

[KLRDMD]

9 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

He recommended starting out with only 3 steps--

1. Cut throttle to idle immediately
2. Neutralize elevators and ailerons
3. Recover once the spin stops

The generally accepted sequence is:

P - reduce power

A - neutralize ailerons

R - opposite rudder

E - elevator to level flight

[aviatoreb]

13 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

There was an AOPA video a few years ago (I can't get to there video page at work, so I don't have the link), where someone suggested caution with using the rudder during spin recovery.  He demonstrated an eye-popping example where full opposite rudder converted a normal spin to an inverted spin in a half second.  He recommended starting out with only 3 steps--

1. Cut throttle to idle immediately
2. Neutralize elevators and ailerons
3. Recover once the spin stops

Of course, I recall he was an aerobatic instructor, so this might be better if you have plenty of altitude, but if you spin down low, I'm not sure you shouldn't do everything possible to get out the spin in the minimum altitude.  I suppose if it puts you in an inverted spin your not any less in trouble than you were to start. 

Conversely, I think autopilots are good at managing fine adjustments to the controls over time, but not so good at aggressive movements.  You could pre-program in an aggressive recovery maneuver, but what if you set it off in the wrong situation?  That's like having an automatic emergency brake on your car.  If it goes off accidentally while you're on the highway, you're in a world of hurt.  I've had it set off in my car by oncoming traffic around curves, and it's dangerous at worst, absolutely terrifying at best.

TL;DR -- autopilot might not need the rudder to recover, but I'm not sure there's a safe way to program the autopilot to make an aggressive maneuver.

Ack!  I never heard that.

[MARZ]

19 hours ago, Pritch said:

It has been very smoky out here in Oregon and Calif. and you can easily get suckered in to thinking you can see through the stuff and then it has got you. 

 

About a month back Texas had the Sahara dust - I was high - definitely VFR supposed to be CAVU but then lost the horizon - went down to about 3k bumpy and hazy - really not an enjoyable flight at all. 

[LANCECASPER]

3 hours ago, M20FanJesse said:

That's one thing that Cirrus has, that blue LVL button. Auto pilot or not, hit it, and it sets the aircraft straight and holds altitude. I think other aircraft are starting to incorporate this as well

Some of the Cirruses have it . . .

 

Every Cirrus before the Garmin G1000 came with STEC 55X autopilots which don't have the Level feature.

But if owners have done the upgrade to the Avidyne DFC90 Autopilot that's a slide-in replacement for the STEC 55X, then they have the "Straight & Level" button.

The G1000 Cirrus has the Garmin GFC700 which has the blue LVL button.

Most Cirrus owners that get in a spin would pull the chute. Not sure what the success rate from a spin is with the parachute.

[jaylw314]

23 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

There was an AOPA video a few years ago (I can't get to there video page at work, so I don't have the link), where someone suggested caution with using the rudder during spin recovery.  He demonstrated an eye-popping example where full opposite rudder converted a normal spin to an inverted spin in a half second.  He recommended starting out with only 3 steps--

1. Cut throttle to idle immediately
2. Neutralize elevators and ailerons
3. Recover once the spin stops

Of course, I recall he was an aerobatic instructor, so this might be better if you have plenty of altitude, but if you spin down low, I'm not sure you shouldn't do everything possible to get out the spin in the minimum altitude.  I suppose if it puts you in an inverted spin your not any less in trouble than you were to start. 

Here's the link to there article, but they don't seem to have the dang video on their website anymore.  I'll see if I can find it elsewhere...

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2010/june/03/spin-myths

Can't find the original video, but here's someone who tested 3 different spin recovery techniques against each other in a Pitts.  The method above is referred to in the video as "Finagin" (the instructor in the article above)

 

[steingar]

We all have an AOA equivalent in our aircraft, its called the stall horn.  Its failed to save way too many of our fellow Airmen, and I doubt another alarm in the cockpit is going to substitute for poor airmanship.  I dearly hope that my departed brothers had some horrific malfunction, or elves tearing off their controls, or a singularity disturbing the air of their passage.  I have the sinking feeling that they got slow and uncoordinated, with very predictable results.

I truly hope I'm wrong.  I hope the report shows that Santa Claus materialized in the cockpit and crashed their airplane, or Wonder Woman's invisible jet put them in a wingtip vortex.

[M016576]

53 minutes ago, steingar said:

We all have an AOA equivalent in our aircraft, its called the stall horn. 

I’ve heard this too often- that’s like saying a buzzer that goes off when the right front wheel in your car hits 55mph is the equivalent of a speedometer.  It’s not.  That’s another thread.

With that in mind though- I do agree with you that continuous training is the best answer to not allowing one into a situation where they would stall-> spin, and if they do get there- to know how to recover (not saying that is what happened in this case- as we really don’t know).  

The pilots that I worry about that might get themselves into trouble (myself included)?  Those that have been “doing this for a long time.”  Private rated, IFR rated, ATP rated.. especially CFI/CFII rated.  The second we say to ourselves “I’ve got this- I know what I’m doing- I’ve been flying for XX years...” is the second limits may be forgotten.. or bent... aerodynamic... physical... mental.  training keeps us grounded though- reminds us as pilots what’s important and why.  The key to being able to receive training though, is an honest, modest assessment of one’s own skill set.  Then you’ve got to find a CFI that holds those values and has the skillset required.. and that’s getting harder by the day.  (Also another thread).

Edited August 16, 2018 by M016576

[rpcc]

Here are a couple links to what I was referring too regarding envelope protection - on the new autopilots from avidine and garmin.  It seems the garmin unit can operate when the pilot is flying the plane.  That is probably better than the stall horn.  Anyone have any experience with this?

https://www.avidyne.com/products/dfc90/envelope-protection.html

https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/604258

 

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, rpcc said:

Here are a couple links to what I was referring too regarding envelope protection - on the new autopilots from avidine and garmin.  It seems the garmin unit can operate when the pilot is flying the plane.  That is probably better than the stall horn.  Anyone have any experience with this?

https://www.avidyne.com/products/dfc90/envelope-protection.html

https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/604258

 

It'd be interesting to see what the results are.  I assume there is good data on the use of envelope protection in commercial aircraft (like stick shakers), but if this type of equipment only gets installed in 1% of GA aircraft, it's not really going to make a dent in loss of control type accidents.

At least reading about them, it sounds like they could recover from unusual attitudes, but they say nothing about spin recovery.

[ArtVandelay]

...but they say nothing about spin recovery.

Kinda hard todo without rudder control, which is fairly rare in the small GA world. The ? Is, if the AP does it’s job, do you need spin recovery?

[jaylw314]

32 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

Kinda hard todo without rudder control, which is fairly rare in the small GA world. The ? Is, if the AP does it’s job, do you need spin recovery?

Presumably no, but an implied question came up earlier if spin recovery could be automated.