Nav light replacement bulb

[ShuRugal]

1 hour ago, Stephen said:

for those trying to follow the conversation and the doc references,  that may not have the illustrated parts catalog and maint manuals (including wiring/electrical): here are the sheets from my manuals:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Grimes A1285 appears to be the whole assembly.  What part number is called for in the bulb?

[EricJ]

54 minutes ago, ShuRugal said:

Grimes A1285 appears to be the whole assembly.  What part number is called for in the bulb?

The bulb isn't shown in the M20J IPC, either.

 

[Albatros]

So, I had conversation with FAA, about legality of pilot/operator replacing aircraft navigation  Light bulb. 

Official FAA rules say that pilot can replaced any light bulb on aircraft without any need for mechanic to signe it off. Even if you are changing bulb to LED!!!!

only thing that matters you install correctly color where it should be. There is no such a thing as “that bulb is not aircraft/FAA approved” 

and don’t kill messengers (me)!

[Marauder]

8 hours ago, Albatros said:

So, I had conversation with FAA, about legality of pilot/operator replacing aircraft navigation  Light bulb. 

Official FAA rules say that pilot can replaced any light bulb on aircraft without any need for mechanic to signe it off. Even if you are changing bulb to LED!!!!

only thing that matters you install correctly color where it should be. There is no such a thing as “that bulb is not aircraft/FAA approved” 

and don’t kill messengers (me)!

READY, AIM, FIRE!!!  How dare you ask for a legal answer!!!!! 

Edited May 4, 2018 by Marauder

[cctsurf]

9 minutes ago, Marauder said:

READY, AIM, FIRE!!!  How dare you as for a legal answer!!!!! 

I'm gonna need more popcorn.  Who had the snacks for this verbal altercation ... I mean forum?

[Stephen]

21 minutes ago, Albatros said:

So, I had conversation with FAA, about legality of pilot/operator replacing aircraft navigation  Light bulb. 

Official FAA rules say that pilot can replaced any light bulb on aircraft without any need for mechanic to signe it off. Even if you are changing bulb to LED!!!!

only thing that matters you install correctly color where it should be. There is no such a thing as “that bulb is not aircraft/FAA approved” 

and don’t kill messengers (me)!

That would be great news and logical given the technology context. Were you able to get the opinion via email?

[Yetti]

I'll take what is a major modification for $500.00 Alex.

[RobertGary1]

15 hours ago, David Herman said:

I think it is great if this is accurate. This is great news!

 please to post your specific reference in the FARs ... so I can print it, show it to my IA ... and carry it with me in case we are ramp inspected. 

I can change any light bulb to any light bulb I want ... who woulda thunk it? PMA SCHMEE- EM-AA!

Yes, its more than a little suspicious unless the FSDO was referring to an LED that had a TSO or similar. Of course, as always unless it comes from the Office of the Chief Council each FSDO is entitled to interpret it their own way.

-Robert

[Hank]

30 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

Yes, its more than a little suspicious unless the FSDO was referring to an LED that had a TSO or similar. Of course, as always unless it comes from the Office of the Chief Council each FSDO is entitled to interpret it their own way.

-Robert

That can make it hard to travel (like the guy who parked with his new Q Tip prop and came back to find it red taggged as a prop strike) or relocate (see Marauder's post above about having to remove other-FSDO-approved modifications). Approved should be approved, not unapprovable after the fact because some guy somewhere else doesn't like it. 

[RobertGary1]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

That can make it hard to travel (like the guy who parked with his new Q Tip prop and came back to find it red taggged as a prop strike) or relocate (see Marauder's post above about having to remove other-FSDO-approved modifications). Approved should be approved, not unapprovable after the fact because some guy somewhere else doesn't like it. 

That’s why guys often get a 337 for things that aren’t really major mods. 

-Robert

[jetdriven]

The title of the 337 says major alteration or repair. If it is, great. If it’s not, you’re misusing the form. 

[cbarnes403]

It's still only a bulb, no modification to the aircraft performance. replacing an old with a new. Change the bulb and make a log book entry.

[Bartman]

Has anyone ever had or know someone who had a problem with the FAA, ramp check, or been cited for violation based on an LED bulb ?  I didn't see anyone complaining about using M-D Marine and Automotive Weatherstripping which is available in the aviation isle at many stores, yet it is evidently used widely on the Mooney fleet.

I ask this out of real curiosity and not trying to fan the flames or ruffle the tail feathers of the great AP and IA guys and gals we have.  I see both sides.

 

[cctsurf]

22 hours ago, jetdriven said:

The title of the 337 says major alteration or repair. If it is, great. If it’s not, you’re misusing the form. 

I wholeheartedly agree, however, if one FSDO will cite you for something another will sign off, I can understand why people are using them for stupid things like LED light. 

12 hours ago, cbarnes403 said:

It's still only a bulb, no modification to the aircraft performance. replacing an old with a new. Change the bulb and make a log book entry.

I understand that there may be interactions.  I don't remember what they are, but they have something to do with the gear indicators not working if LEDs are installed somewhere. While I think these replacements should be the decision of the Owner, we also need to know that this sort of thing can happen if we are not careful.

[cbarnes403]

20 hours ago, cctsurf said:

I wholeheartedly agree, however, if one FSDO will cite you for something another will sign off, I can understand why people are using them for stupid things like LED light. 

I understand that there may be interactions.  I don't remember what they are, but they have something to do with the gear indicators not working if LEDs are installed somewhere. While I think these replacements should be the decision of the Owner, we also need to know that this sort of thing can happen if we are not careful.

I believe that most of those type of issues may be due to bad grounds at the bulb socket.

[Huitt3106]

On 4/25/2018 at 9:46 PM, Raptor05121 said:

Whelen Chroma series LED. $115/ea. Probably THE brightest drop-in LED.

I'm digging up an old thread here.  To do the drop in replacement LED bulbs, you would have to replace the current green/ red lenses with a clear lens correct?  Where do you get the clear lens?  The part number according to this parts list (https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/whelenstrobeparts1.php?gclid=Cj0KCQjwiILsBRCGARIsAHKQWLN0ZWpVVYriZGowTk6SFCZoPVHtVAI3IL9Df1tbNHMTiexXo3N_wSQaAlk7EALw_wcB) is w1284.  The whelen brand clear lens I found is like $217 on SkyGeek.  Am I missing an easier (cheaper) way to accomplish this?  

Edited September 17, 2019 by Huitt3106

[Bolter]

33 minutes ago, Huitt3106 said:

I'm digging up an old thread here.  To do the drop in replacement LED bulbs, you would have to replace the current green/ red lenses with a clear lens correct?  Where do you get the clear lens?  The part number according to this parts list (https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/whelenstrobeparts1.php?gclid=Cj0KCQjwiILsBRCGARIsAHKQWLN0ZWpVVYriZGowTk6SFCZoPVHtVAI3IL9Df1tbNHMTiexXo3N_wSQaAlk7EALw_wcB) is w1284.  The whelen brand clear lens I found is like $217 on SkyGeek.  Am I missing an easier (cheaper) way to accomplish this?  

Its not truly scientific, but sufficiently convincing that colored lens with colored LED bulb is just fine to the human eye:

https://www.autobulbsdirect.co.uk/blog/red-or-white-led-bulb-behind-a-red-lens/

-dan

[Hank]

2 hours ago, Dan at S43 said:

Its not truly scientific, but sufficiently convincing that colored lens with colored LED bulb is just fine to the human eye:

https://www.autobulbsdirect.co.uk/blog/red-or-white-led-bulb-behind-a-red-lens/

-dan

What's wrong with running a clear/white LED bulb with a colored lens, just like we do with incandescent???

[ArtVandelay]

What's wrong with running a clear/white LED bulb with a colored lens, just like we do with incandescent???

Nothing, but it’s not efficient to produce light of all colors and then filter out all but one, better to have the led put out the color you want. Navigation lights have to be visible from a certain distance.

[jetdriven]

The bulb is certified as part of an assembly that is certified. That Bulb the OP was holding his hand was certainly not some garden-variety incandescent bulb, it was a very specific  shape with a backlit reflector inside. That puts light in a certain pattern that’s acceptable. But when you put a 360 degree  LED bulb in there don’t really know what you’re getting. 
the whelen chroma led bulbs also have that shape or light pattern.  

Edited September 18, 2019 by jetdriven

[EricJ]

5 hours ago, Huitt3106 said:

I'm digging up an old thread here.  To do the drop in replacement LED bulbs, you would have to replace the current green/ red lenses with a clear lens correct?  Where do you get the clear lens?  The part number according to this parts list (https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/whelenstrobeparts1.php?gclid=Cj0KCQjwiILsBRCGARIsAHKQWLN0ZWpVVYriZGowTk6SFCZoPVHtVAI3IL9Df1tbNHMTiexXo3N_wSQaAlk7EALw_wcB) is w1284.  The whelen brand clear lens I found is like $217 on SkyGeek.  Am I missing an easier (cheaper) way to accomplish this?  

I think I used this:

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/t1284pclens.php

 

Edit:  I don't think I used that exact one, but whatever I got, it wasn't very expensive and was a perfect fit for the colored lenses.

 

Edited September 18, 2019 by EricJ

[Bob E]

You can switch to LED bulbs.  No paperwork required when one replaces a light bulb.  For the latest on this, check out the October 2019 issue of AOPA pilot, page 90, "What is preventive maintenance?" 

Some background:  FAR 23.1391, which covered position light design, no longer exists since the rewrite on Part 23: https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...80b2bb506ebc9&mc=true&node=pt14.1.23&rgn=div5   In any case, Part 23 covers airworthiness standards for aircraft certification.

The relevant FAR is 91.205(c)(2):  An aircraft must be equipped with “approved position lights” for night flight.  (Note:  not “approved position light bulbs.”)  Part 91, the General Operating and Flight Rules, contains the basic equipment requirements, maintenance/inspection requirements, flight rules, etc. and places responsibility on the owner/operator.

There’s also 14 CFR Ch. I, Appendix A to Part 43 – Major Alterations, Major Repairs, and Preventive Maintenance.  Paragraph (c)(17) states that “Replacing bulbs, reflectors, and lenses of position and landing lights” is preventive maintenance, and paragraph (c)(30) allows the pilot-owner to do preventive maintenance. 

So, may I simply replace my old incandescent position light bulbs with LED bulbs?  Yes.  Unlike anti-collision lights, position light bulbs are not TSO'd.  Certainly no 337 needed.  The bulbs in my position lights are Aero-Lite LEDs. The wingtip light bulbs are aviation green and red; the colors are pure and brilliant when the bulbs are under the original colored lenses.

But a caveat. There’s the issue of electromagnetic interference.  The Aero-Lite brochure refers to FAR 23.1383, which no longer exists, BUT it also states that you have to test for EMI if you have any HSI compass components within 24 inches of the bulb or the wire powering it, by doing a compass swing with the light switched on and noting any compass position error.  Regulation or no regulation, this is a sensible precaution.  

That’s the case for me; I have a G5 HSI, which requires a magnetometer near the end of the wing.  The avionics shop that installed it did that check.

By the way, the “LED position light” issue seems to be a topic of endless debate on aircraft owner forums.  This post is basically the same as I posted here back in June.

(Edited to use "position light bulbs" instead of "position lights" in a couple of places.)

[jaylw314]

11 hours ago, Bob E said:

So, may I simply replace my old incandescent position light bulbs with LED bulbs?  Yes.  Unlike anti-collision lights, position lights are not TSO'd.  Certainly no 337 needed.  My LED position lights are Aero-Lites. The wingtip lights are aviation green and red; the colors are pure and brilliant when the bulbs are under the original colored lenses.

That is incorrect, I believe position lights and anticollision beacons are TSO'd.  Landing lights and (I think) strobe lights are not.  That is why most people don't think twice about swapping out landing lights for LED's, but there is at least some more controversy about position lights and anticollision beacons.

Also, FWIW, I don't think any of Part 23 applies to Mooney's, they were certified under CAR 4 and still are AFAIK

[Hank]

1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

That is incorrect, I believe position lights and anticollision beacons are TSO'd.  Landing lights and (I think) strobe lights are not.  That is why most people don't think twice about swapping out landing lights for LED's, but there is at least some more controversy about position lights and anticollision beacons.

Also, FWIW, I don't think any of Part 23 applies to Mooney's, they were certified under CAR 4 and still are AFAIK

CAR 3

[jaylw314]

2 minutes ago, Hank said:

CAR 3

oops, thanks