Power settings in pattern

[TimM20F]

I'm probably going to regret this post but here goes:  I have a 1968 M20F Exec which I bought a few months ago after a 10 year hiatus from flying.  What initial power setting do you recommend for abeam touchdown to start the landing sequence? 

[Yetti]

For no one in the pattern.   15mp on downwind.   Slow up sometimes to get under gear speed, put gear out abeam,  U turn to land.  Throttle and flaps as needed.   Depends on wind, but usually land half flaps.  flaps go in usually half way on base.

If you are following people around the pattern.  15MP seems to work, but you may have to throw out the gear for slower planes.

 

[Bryan]

Whatever it takes to maintain 100kts on downwind, 90kts on base, 80kts on final and slowing to 70-75 short final... for me.

I don’t look at MAP in the pattern; only airspeed and only run my prop back in (full forward) after I power back usually just abeam the numbers.

I think anything below 15-17” of MAP you get pushing on the prop. I slowly pull power to idle when runway is assured usually “over the fence”

*Note: not a CFI, only PP thoughts, that work for me.

[Yetti]

The Fs are most likely going to have a RPM limitations. 15MP will keep you above 2350.  I was taught don't touch throttle or mixture from cruise settings unless you need a go around, then shove everything forward.

 

[Oscar Avalle]

In my M20C I use power to keep speed. 100 downwind, 90 base and 80 final


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[Hank]

I keep it simple, and slow to 100 mph with Takeoff flaps by pattern entry. Whatever MP gives me that. Downwind and Base I fly 90 mph, drop gear and slightly retard throttle to begin descent abeam my intneded point of landing. Roll wings level at 85 mph on Final, slowing towards short final target speed of (75 mph - 5 mph per 300 lb. below gross) by the numbers. Flaps, throttle and elevator are used to maintain glideslope and desired speed. Idle throttle when I know I've got the field made. Works well for my C.

From my 10-12 hours in an F, things work differently. The speeds should be close, maybe nudge the Final target speed by 5 mph. Also, Fs land much better with Full Flaps on final.

Expect to float in the flare more than you are used to . . . . For every 1 mph above stall speed, you will require approx. 100' more runway length for floating, according to Bob Kromer, former Mooney test pilot, VP of Engineering and later CEO. 

The best thing you can do is hire an experienced Mooney CFI. The second best is to buy Don Kaye's "How to Land a Mooney" CD. @donkaye has a great website, too. Maybe he will post a link for you. 

[bradp]

In a J (close enough) I fly by pattern at airspeed and not power.  

Usually I’ll end up 15 in downwind, gear abeam, half flaps and opposite trim couple of inches off the power, turn base at 100 mph, turn final, slow to 80 mph.  That takes about 12 in or so...

[luv737s]

Every mooney is slightly different including mine.  Weight is a big factor.  I suggest you do what I do with my students.  Go up and fly a practice pattern at altitude, write down all speeds/MPs that work (great to bring a friend.)   Fly the simulated pattern,  fully configured on final and landing into the stall and note settings, than practice your go arounds.  If you fly instruments, do the same for final WITH gear and your favorite flap setting noting the speed/MP combination and write those down.  Now you will have a set of numbers for your plane and your normal weight. 

     I fly 100MPH downwind, 80 base and 70-80 on final,  full flaps on most days but I also fly no flap on longgg runways.  I have a 1962 M20C.  Hope this helps. 

[MARZ]

Get to 100 mph downwind - cut throttle to idle abeam the numbers - practice energy management 

[donkaye, MCFI]

4 hours ago, Hank said:

I keep it simple, and slow to 100 mph with Takeoff flaps by pattern entry. Whatever MP gives me that. Downwind and Base I fly 90 mph, drop gear and slightly retard throttle to begin descent abeam my intneded point of landing. Roll wings level at 85 mph on Final, slowing towards short final target speed of (75 mph - 5 mph per 300 lb. below gross) by the numbers. Flaps, throttle and elevator are used to maintain glideslope and desired speed. Idle throttle when I know I've got the field made. Works well for my C.

From my 10-12 hours in an F, things work differently. The speeds should be close, maybe nudge the Final target speed by 5 mph. Also, Fs land much better with Full Flaps on final.

Expect to float in the flare more than you are used to . . . . For every 1 mph above stall speed, you will require approx. 100' more runway length for floating, according to Bob Kromer, former Mooney test pilot, VP of Engineering and later CEO. 

The best thing you can do is hire an experienced Mooney CFI. The second best is to buy Don Kaye's "How to Land a Mooney" CD. @donkaye has a great website, too. Maybe he will post a link for you. 

I've attached the M20F landing pattern procedure I teach in the F Model.  My website is: donkaye.com

Traffic pattern M20F.pdf

[Skates97]

2 hours ago, donkaye said:

I've attached the M20F landing pattern procedure I teach in the F Model.  My website is: donkaye.com

Traffic pattern M20F.pdf

Don, thanks for posting that. I also enjoyed getting your video from you a couple months back. As others have said, I think it's worth the small investment and is a good review tool every so often.

A couple of questions. When you reduce to 16" on crosswind you are also reducing RPM with the prop control, leaning out the mixture and closing the cowl flaps? Then you reverse and go mixture rich and prop forward on the GUMP check abeam the numbers? I see this is for flying a closed pattern. Do you add the extra steps on crosswind so that the student gets used to the way they will be set up coming into the pattern after a cross country flight and descent?

[jaylw314]

13 hours ago, Yetti said:

For no one in the pattern.   15mp on downwind.   Slow up sometimes to get under gear speed, put gear out abeam,  U turn to land.  Throttle and flaps as needed.   Depends on wind, but usually land half flaps.  flaps go in usually half way on base.

If you are following people around the pattern.  15MP seems to work, but you may have to throw out the gear for slower planes.

 

15" seems good for starters

[Stnelson903]

How about the settings and speeds for a 231? Anybody?


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[gsxrpilot]

I find my 252 works exactly the same way as my M20C did. Once on downwind, just look out the window and do what's required to put it down gently in the first 500 ft. of runway.

I have no idea the MP, RPM, airspeed, anything. I just look out the window at the runway and go land. 

The only thing that I do every time is extend the gear. Everything else is as required for conditions.

**I do have a copy of Don's video and have watched it more than a few times. 

[steingar]

Yeah, I honestly couldn't tell you my power settings in the pattern, I just don't look that much.  Whatever keeps the energy where it needs to be.  Sorry to be unhelpful, but that's the main thing for how to land a Mooney (or any other aircraft, for that matter).  You need to get a feel for its energy, and manage that.  Once the tires kiss the pavement you should have must run out.

[EricJ]

WIth the prop control full forward I fly mostly by rpm, partly so that I'm always cognizant of keeping it out of the yellow band, and don't pay as much attention to MP.   As others have said, in the pattern if you're flying the conditions rather than a formula it's all by ear, anyway, so you just do what you need to do.   My home field is extremely busy with a LOT of student traffic, so many or most of the patterns wind up being non-standard, anyway, e.g., if you have to follow traffic ahead of you that spontaneously decides to fly halfway to Scottsdale before turning base.  So you have to fly what's there rather than always doing something at a particular place in the pattern, or following a fixed procedure.

That said, after crossing abeam the numbers to touchdown I usually have the rpm at either the top edge of the yellow arc, the bottom edge, or at idle.

[Sime]

11 hours ago, donkaye said:

I've attached the M20F landing pattern procedure I teach in the F Model.  My website is: donkaye.com

Traffic pattern M20F.pdf

Thanks for posting this Don. Just curious though why you suggest to lower the gear on crosswind which is not long after raising them on takeoff?

If that's the case and you are only flying/remaining in the pattern, would it not be sensible to just leave the gear down for the entire duration of the pattern, thus reducing the chance of a mechanical failure and/or forgetting to lower the gear?

Personally, if I am entering the pattern at altitude, I slow to 100 knots and lower my gear at the beginning of downwind. I then check the gear is down again on late downwind during GUMPS, then check it again on final with the PUF check (Prop, Undercarriage and Flaps). This gives me three distinct opportunities to confirm the gear is down, as opposed to the usual two. Sure, you might sacrifice some speed on downwind, but I believe it's a small price to pay to get an extra chance in one's landing routine to check the gear is down.

[donkaye, MCFI]

1 hour ago, Sime said:

Thanks for posting this Don. Just curious though why you suggest to lower the gear on crosswind which is not long after raising them on takeoff?

If that's the case and you are only flying/remaining in the pattern, would it not be sensible to just leave the gear down for the entire duration of the pattern, thus reducing the chance of a mechanical failure and/or forgetting to lower the gear?

My procedure simplifies the whole pattern.  The gear is retracted to reduce drag and maximize climb.  They are then extended first to be used as a brake, followed by a power reduction to achieve the required downwind speed.  if they were not retracted, then it would be necessary to do several power changes on downwind.

[bradp]

And what of the engine management in reducing RPM, and leaning on downwind?  Just curious.

If you are down near 15-16" MP you're going to be off the governor anyway, and by the time your power reduction occurs at abeam point you should be transitioning the yellow arc (the CW is continuous use is prohibited).  If I recall correctly the prohibition came from a harmonic in straight edged two blade props - that hamonic / shudder is not present on curved tip two blade props (ie Maccauley) but the placard lived on.  Can someone debunk this as myth?  Regardless 1-2 minutes of operation during landing phase is not continuous in my book.

 

Personally for me it's takeoff, gear up (I don't care much about usable runway remaining - gear comes down in 8 seconds if need be), flaps up, full power to just below pattern, then reduce to 20", don't touch prop or mixture, you will accelerate a bit to about 120 mph, gear out abeam, reduce throttle to 15', descend 100 mph, flaps, turn, turn, ~12' slow, more flaps if desired, 80 mph short final, land.

[donkaye, MCFI]

10 hours ago, Stnelson903 said:

How about the settings and speeds for a 231? Anybody?


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Attached the M20K model procedure.

Traffic pattern M20K.pdf

[donkaye, MCFI]

1 hour ago, Sime said:

Thanks for posting this Don. Just curious though why you suggest to lower the gear on crosswind which is not long after raising them on takeoff?

If that's the case and you are only flying/remaining in the pattern, would it not be sensible to just leave the gear down for the entire duration of the pattern, thus reducing the chance of a mechanical failure and/or forgetting to lower the gear?

Personally, if I am entering the pattern at altitude, I slow to 100 knots and lower my gear at the beginning of downwind. I then check the gear is down again on late downwind during GUMPS, then check it again on final with the PUF check (Prop, Undercarriage and Flaps). This gives me three distinct opportunities to confirm the gear is down, as opposed to the usual two. Sure, you might sacrifice some speed on downwind, but I believe it's a small price to pay to get an extra chance in one's landing routine to check the gear is down.

NO!  You have to raise them to get a good climb rate, then lower them to be used as a speed brake before power reduction to get to the required downwind speed without overspeeding and quickly getting behind the airplane.

[Bob - S50]

I'd be willing to bet no two of us do the same thing.  I fly a J so it will be slightly different than you.  I hate wasting gas (and money) so I approach the pattern clean about 2200 RPM and 15".  That gets me to about 105 KIAS.  Abeam the numbers I put the gear down and confirm it is down.  I then reduce power, select full flaps while running the electric trim nose up.  Once the flaps are down I use pitch and power as needed for the rest of the pattern.

Two of my three partners lower the gear while on the 45 to downwind and use power to drag the airplane around the pattern.  At least one of them starts to descend abeam the numbers.  I don't start my descent until I'm fully configured.

Find what's comfortable for you and build a habit pattern.

[bradp]

And even in the slippery birds you can enter the downwind at 150+mph and fly a normal pattern.  The plane will do just about anything given a little anticipation.  I like all the small differences here.  

[donkaye, MCFI]

1 hour ago, bradp said:

And even in the slippery birds you can enter the downwind at 150+mph and fly a normal pattern.  The plane will do just about anything given a little anticipation.  I like all the small differences here.  

I'm a flight instructor, so I teach a method that will not get a pilot behind his airplane.  When you get comfortable with the plane, that method can be modified.  For example, in my case, coming into San Jose on the ILS, I'll fly a constant slope variable airspeed approach to five miles out, then it's speed brakes, then gear, and then flaps, timed to be at approach speed at the start of the flare.

[M20F-1968]

4 hours ago, donkaye said:

I'm a flight instructor, so I teach a method that will not get a pilot behind his airplane.  When you get comfortable with the plane, that method can be modified.  For example, in my case, coming into San Jose on the ILS, I'll fly a constant slope variable airspeed approach to five miles out, then it's speed brakes, then gear, and then flaps, timed to be at approach speed at the start of the flare.

Don,

Does this post suggest that you routinely use speed brakes on approach and landing.

I have used speed brakes and have found them to be helpful.  Some of my best landings were done with them out.  But, I think such an approach should be planned with speed brakes and the airplane configured and stabilized with them.

The speed brakes come in quickly if a go around is needed but it is one more thing to think about.  The airplane does still climb with flaps and speed brakes out but with less performance.

John Breda