Mooney N94MR- Paint Project

[Bug Smasher]

!!!! That turned out nice! Well done.

[PeytonM]

Looks outstanding!! Please post more pics when you get a chance.  I’ll pm you and see if we can meet. I’m in the market for a paint job, so I’d like to pick your brain and see the final product in person. 

[Danb]

Absolutely beautiful!

[SAMFOX]

On 2/23/2018 at 3:26 PM, DonMuncy said:

Byron,

I'm not really very familiar with automotive or aircraft paint. But I was of the opinion that aircraft paints were more expensive than automotive. Is that factual? Is there any downside to using automotive paint on a plane? If automotive paints are superior, why are the aircraft paint facilities still using aircraft products? Or do they? 

Congrats, 94MR looks amazing...contrast is nice and flows well! Also did anyone ever try to answer Don’s question or have any info on the pros and cons of auto vs aero paints?

[Jeff_S]

Pretty cool. The second Ovation off the production line and all spiffed up. Of course I’m biased, but I think with the sculpted lines and tight inlets in the cowling the Ovation is the prettiest of all the M20s. The nose high attitude of the long body really makes it look like it’s ready to leap into the sky!

[carusoam]

The first dozen or so Os were wearing left over clothes from their older brothers...

The old clothes worked, just didn’t fit quite right.  

94MR is now wearing the equivalent of an Armani Suit!

Nice work!

-a-

[Rmag]

Lots of questions about aviation paint.  As a paint shop owner (SureFlight at KMQS), I thought I would chime in and answer some of the questions.

 

On ‎2‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 2:39 PM, xcrmckenna said:

I have a few friends that are high end automotive painters. One guy has painted a few Lakers cars and I’ve bent their ears a few times about airplane paint. They say the types of paint most shops are using are archaic compared to the newer automotive paints. They last longer and the clean up is much safer. They don’t fade as bad and resist defects. I guess it means a less experienced painter can make it look good, but I think that makes an expert painter look perfect.

 

The aviation market is miniscule compared to the automotive market.  There will always be more innovation in the automotive market to due its size and volume.  Automotive paint is easier to use.  It lays out flatter with less defects.  Its easier to make a nice-looking finish.  xcrmckenna is correct, a less experienced painter can make automotive paint look good.  Aircraft paint is more finicky and more opt to have defects such as sags, runs, dry spots, reactions, orange peel, etc.  It is more difficult to apply.  With rare exception, you can’t just take an automotive painter and have him paint an aircraft with aviation paint and have it turn out well. 

 

On ‎2‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 3:59 PM, mooneyman said:

It's interesting that you mention automotive paint because that's what Ken uses at Flying Colors. I knew that I wanted metallic silver as base with some red graphics. Instead of looking at Sherwin-Williams Jet Glo sample charts, he told me to visit various automotive websites and find some colors that I liked. The shade of red that we picked is from Porsche and the silver is from Mercedes. I agree that it looks awesome! Can't wait to see it in person!

 

You really want to check to see if they put automotive paint on your aircraft.  If you go to their website and read their processes, step 12 regarding paint they use Jet Glo or Acry Glo which is Sherwin Williams Aviation Paint.  They might have had you look at automotive colors to get a better sampling than Sherwin Williams samples.  You can match aviation paint colors to automotive colors.  We have a mixing room with all of the tints, metallics, pearlescent, etc.  We have a special camera that takes a picture of the paint finish and produces a formula to mix any color we want in aviation paint.  You don’t want car paint on your aircraft.  See why below…

 

On ‎2‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 11:33 AM, Hyett6420 said:

  Ok FAA you need to regulate paint shops.   

 

The FAA does regulate paint shops.  We are an FAA Part 145 Repair Station paint shop.  The FAA audits us at least annually to make sure we are following regulations.  They pull a sample of our paint work orders to make sure we are following aircraft maintenance manuals.  Some manuals not only specify paint process, but also which paint has to be used.  Cirrus aircraft for example specifies a specific Axalta (used to be DuPont) paint.  Older Cirrus specified PPG.  They are also checking what kind of paint we are using.  See why below…

 

On ‎2‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 3:26 PM, DonMuncy said:

I'm not really very familiar with automotive or aircraft paint. But I was of the opinion that aircraft paints were more expensive than automotive. Is that factual? Is there any downside to using automotive paint on a plane? If automotive paints are superior, why are the aircraft paint facilities still using aircraft products? Or do they? 

 

Aircraft paint is more expensive.  Its boutique compared to automotive paint.  Aviation paint is specifically formulated for the aviation environment.  Some of this is not as important on a single engine piston like we are flying, but aviation paint has to withstand 400-500 knot jet aircraft airspeeds in weather without it coming off.  It is formulated so that aviation fuels do not stain the finish.  It is resistant to hydraulic fluids like Skydrol that is used in some helicopters and jets.  Skydrol would strip automotive paint right off the aircraft.  Every can of aviation paint is also labeled with an expiration date and batch numbers for FAA traceability.  Just like anything that is permanently installed or applied to a certified aircraft, you can’t just install whatever you want.  You can’t go to Home Depot and buy a bunch of nuts, bolts, and screws and use them in your aircraft.  You can’t go to Radio Shack and buy a bunch of wires and wire up some avionics.  If something materially fails with a paint that causes a problem, the FAA wants to be able to trace the paint back to its date, and batch.  It can use this information to see if any other aircraft may be affected and determine failure root causes.  So yes, there is a downside to using car paint on an aircraft.  Automotive paints are superior in their ease of use and ability to make look good, but they are not formulated for the aviation environment, and they lack any traceability.  Frankly, I don’t know how someone can do a proper logbook sign off using car paint.  The FAA specifically looks at this when they audit us.  They also go through our paint cabinets.  If there is any expired paint or paint without traceability labels, we get a write-up.

 

On ‎2‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 3:29 PM, aviatoreb said:

I thought the deal with factory auto paint was that it was painted on in booths and then baked on.  Making it not reasonable for aircraft repainting shops.

 

This is exactly how paint is applied.  We have a paint booth/hangar, we apply the paint, and then bake it on.  A paint booth moves the air while you are spraying so that you don’t have overspray settling on your paint job.  It also heats the air so that you are spraying in a warm temperature.  After it is sprayed, it is baked for proper curing.  Our booth can heat the air to 170 degrees F and it exchanges the entire volume of air in the entire hangar every 48 seconds.

 

If you don’t have a paint booth and are painting in a regular hangar, you have much more chance of dirt and debris getting in your paint, overspray, etc. because there is not as clean of an environment and doesn’t have sufficient air movement.  If you are not baking the paint, some painters will kick the accelerant to make it dry faster which can kill the gloss of the paint.  Or you can just wait a couple days for the paint to dry.  Which also extends the amount of time dirt or debris can settle into the paint.

 

On ‎2‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 4:45 PM, Hyett6420 said:

My understanding is that air paint is thinner and lighter, but to be honest, i know nought about car paints.  

Actually, car paint would be thinner and lighter.  It's water based.

[xcrmckenna]

@rmag would automotive paint on an airplane be legal? Or is it just not going to hold up as well as aviation paint.


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[carusoam]

Great explanations, RMag!

Thanks for sharing the inner details.

Best regards,

-a-

[DonMuncy]

2 hours ago, Rmag said:

Lots of questions about aviation paint.  As a paint shop owner (SureFlight at KMQS), I thought I would chime in and answer some of the questions.

 

 

The aviation market is miniscule compared to the automotive market.  There will always be more innovation in the automotive market to due its size and volume.  Automotive paint is easier to use.  It lays out flatter with less defects.  Its easier to make a nice-looking finish.  xcrmckenna is correct, a less experienced painter can make automotive paint look good.  Aircraft paint is more finicky and more opt to have defects such as sags, runs, dry spots, reactions, orange peel, etc.  It is more difficult to apply.  With rare exception, you can’t just take an automotive painter and have him paint an aircraft with aviation paint and have it turn out well. 

 

 

You really want to check to see if they put automotive paint on your aircraft.  If you go to their website and read their processes, step 12 regarding paint they use Jet Glo or Acry Glo which is Sherwin Williams Aviation Paint.  They might have had you look at automotive colors to get a better sampling than Sherwin Williams samples.  You can match aviation paint colors to automotive colors.  We have a mixing room with all of the tints, metallics, pearlescent, etc.  We have a special camera that takes a picture of the paint finish and produces a formula to mix any color we want in aviation paint.  You don’t want car paint on your aircraft.  See why below…

 

 

The FAA does regulate paint shops.  We are an FAA Part 145 Repair Station paint shop.  The FAA audits us at least annually to make sure we are following regulations.  They pull a sample of our paint work orders to make sure we are following aircraft maintenance manuals.  Some manuals not only specify paint process, but also which paint has to be used.  Cirrus aircraft for example specifies a specific Axalta (used to be DuPont) paint.  Older Cirrus specified PPG.  They are also checking what kind of paint we are using.  See why below…

 

 

Aircraft paint is more expensive.  Its boutique compared to automotive paint.  Aviation paint is specifically formulated for the aviation environment.  Some of this is not as important on a single engine piston like we are flying, but aviation paint has to withstand 400-500 knot jet aircraft airspeeds in weather without it coming off.  It is formulated so that aviation fuels do not stain the finish.  It is resistant to hydraulic fluids like Skydrol that is used in some helicopters and jets.  Skydrol would strip automotive paint right off the aircraft.  Every can of aviation paint is also labeled with an expiration date and batch numbers for FAA traceability.  Just like anything that is permanently installed or applied to a certified aircraft, you can’t just install whatever you want.  You can’t go to Home Depot and buy a bunch of nuts, bolts, and screws and use them in your aircraft.  You can’t go to Radio Shack and buy a bunch of wires and wire up some avionics.  If something materially fails with a paint that causes a problem, the FAA wants to be able to trace the paint back to its date, and batch.  It can use this information to see if any other aircraft may be affected and determine failure root causes.  So yes, there is a downside to using car paint on an aircraft.  Automotive paints are superior in their ease of use and ability to make look good, but they are not formulated for the aviation environment, and they lack any traceability.  Frankly, I don’t know how someone can do a proper logbook sign off using car paint.  The FAA specifically looks at this when they audit us.  They also go through our paint cabinets.  If there is any expired paint or paint without traceability labels, we get a write-up.

 

 

This is exactly how paint is applied.  We have a paint booth/hangar, we apply the paint, and then bake it on.  A paint booth moves the air while you are spraying so that you don’t have overspray settling on your paint job.  It also heats the air so that you are spraying in a warm temperature.  After it is sprayed, it is baked for proper curing.  Our booth can heat the air to 170 degrees F and it exchanges the entire volume of air in the entire hangar every 48 seconds.

 

If you don’t have a paint booth and are painting in a regular hangar, you have much more chance of dirt and debris getting in your paint, overspray, etc. because there is not as clean of an environment and doesn’t have sufficient air movement.  If you are not baking the paint, some painters will kick the accelerant to make it dry faster which can kill the gloss of the paint.  Or you can just wait a couple days for the paint to dry.  Which also extends the amount of time dirt or debris can settle into the paint.

 

Actually, car paint would be thinner and lighter.  It's water based.

Thanks for the explanation.

[Raptor05121]

That is a show stopper! Amazing design!!!!

[1964-M20E]

On 3/13/2018 at 4:03 PM, mooneyman said:

Plane is finished! Excited to see it in person! Picking up Thursday or Friday!

 

Looks great.

 

Do the best most detailed pre-flight inspection you have ever done before you leave.  I know of someone who had a 210 repainted left and when he went to land the gear would not come down.

He ended up going to a nearby grass strip and landed on the belly there.

[DonMuncy]

29 minutes ago, 1964-M20E said:

Looks great.

 

Do the best most detailed pre-flight inspection you have ever done before you leave.  I know of someone who had a 210 repainted left and when he went to land the gear would not come down.

He ended up going to a nearby grass strip and landed on the belly there.

Hmmm, I wonder how one pre-flights to assure gear will go down.

[Hank]

34 minutes ago, 1964-M20E said:

Looks great.

 

Do the best most detailed pre-flight inspection you have ever done before you leave.  I know of someone who had a 210 repainted left and when he went to land the gear would not come down.

He ended up going to a nearby grass strip and landed on the belly there.

Very thorough preflight. When I picked mine up from a tank reseal, I checked everything. Took extra time and checked every button, switch, knob and dial in the cockpit, too. 

I wouldn't recommend grass for a gear up landing. Concrete does little to the airframe other than remove antennas and the step. But you can dig into a soft surface and spin, flip, all kinds of nasty possibilities . . . .

Hope to see your beautiful ride in person sometime!

[FBCK]

I think that Mooney is actually standing a bit taller!

[mooneyman]

I picked up the plane yesterday. It’s looks even more amazing in person! I conducted a thorough preflight and then had a great one hour flight home. I’d definitely swear that I had an extra knot or two in cruise at 9000’. The biggest surprise came on landing and feeling the cushion of the new gear donuts. Unbelievable compared to the stiff feel of the old donuts. 

[mooneyman]

In regards to the discussion about the legality of different paints, all I can say is that the logbook entry documents exactly what was described to me. Anyone with questions should call Flying Colors Aviation and speak directly to Ken Kaminski. He is an unbelievably knowledgeable A&P/ IA. He is also a former Mooney owner and loves to talk about airplanes. 

[xcrmckenna]

I bet your smile barely squeezed into the plane!!!! It’s beautiful.


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[Rmag]

Paint job looks beautiful!

[rpcc]

Very nice work.  That's going to piss off the factory - can't have the earlier models looking nicer than the new ones. 

Quick question, my quotes for ovation paint work were in the high teens - I'm assuming this was mid to high 20's - is that about right?

[mooneyman]

1 hour ago, rpcc said:

Very nice work.  That's going to piss off the factory - can't have the earlier models looking nicer than the new ones. 

Quick question, my quotes for ovation paint work were in the high teens - I'm assuming this was mid to high 20's - is that about right?

You’re right on the mark!

[MIm20c]

@mooneyman darn, yesterday I flew to ptk with a stop at the jxn tower restaurant. I could have easily stopped over to see your new paint job. Must have felt like picking up a new plane.  Hopefully I’ll run into you at the gas pumps and say hi, your paint job is one I will not soon forget. 

[RobertGary1]

On 2/7/2018 at 2:32 PM, Mark89114 said:

I

I would think you would apply the wing walk stuff over the top of a painted airframe?  Just asking.  

Wing walk has to be applied on primed metal. It won’t adhere to paint. 

-Robert

Edited March 21, 2018 by RobertGary1

[mike_elliott]

On 3/17/2018 at 6:10 PM, rpcc said:

Very nice work.  That's going to piss off the factory - can't have the earlier models looking nicer than the new ones. 

Quick question, my quotes for ovation paint work were in the high teens - I'm assuming this was mid to high 20's - is that about right?

Absolutely gorgeous! New ones from the factory look very pretty also, I dont think Mooney gets PO'd when someone steps up to keep their older plane in such pristine shape. This level of pride of ownership only helps Mooney's sales and marketing

[rpcc]

My comment was really a complement to the OP.  Sorry if it came across otherwise or some type of dig on mooney, that was not the intent.