Thoughts on this M20C?

[David_H]

I noticed this plane has been for sale in Gainesville, GA for awhile. Does anyone know anything about it? What are your thoughts on the price?

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20C&listing_id=2294608&s-type=aircraft

 

[gsxrpilot]

First of all I don't know anything about this plane other than what's available online.

Based on the ad, and other top of the line C's that have sold, I think it's a $45 - $50K C. I'd like it a lot more at the $50K end of the range if it had an HSI, a 530 instead of 430 and ADSB done. Also, if that 430 is not the W variety, I'd knock it down to $40K.

BUT... it doesn't appear that it's being flown much if at all. There isn't anything on FlightAware in the last year. And that makes the deal much more risky.

[Skates97]

8 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

I’ve seen this happen here before. If you wait for and expect to actually buy a plane for the MooneySpace cheap bastard consensus low ball price you will be in the market for a long time. The question is what is this plane worth to you?  It looks like a nice one to me. A very nice one, in fact. 

Jim

I had a range I would pay for the plane I was looking for and ended up paying right at the top of where I wanted to be after negotiations. I am sure it was more than what the MooneySpace crowd would have said I should pay. I also had to put a little more than the 15% down that the finance company normally requires because I was paying more than they thought it was worth. That being said, the only things I "had" to do on it the first year was the 500 hour mag inspection (I knew it was coming), starter solenoid, voltage regulator, and generator. Not bad for a 51 year old plane when I consider that I put 140 hours on it this past year and it just went through annual without issues. The engine appears to still be strong. It has 1,500 hours on it, the oil analysis look great, and the compression's at annual were 78/78/79/78. I think that while I may have paid more than the crowd would have, I feel that it was worth what I paid for it, which is really the most important thing to me.

I did do some extra things to it, shoulder belts, an EDM 830, and replaced the old #2 Nav/Com with a SL-40, but those were not things that had to be done to keep her in the air.

[Bart Chilcott]

I've learned  that aircraft are sort of like women.  There are three primary things to look for.   Paint is like lip stick, its superficial and might attract you, but paint and lipstick fade over time.  Try and look beyond just the eye appeal.  A great engine is like a good heart, it will always be there for you and never let you down as long as you take care of it.  Try and place more value on mechanical than cosmetic and you wont regret it.    And lastly, a wonderful avionics panel is like a beautiful personality.  Its a pleasure to be around and you'll love it more and more and wonder how you got along without it.   $56,900 seems a little high for a C model but she is very pretty.  Like others, I'd like it more south of $49K.  Spend just a tad more and you'll likely  find yourself with a really nice E or F with an amazing panel.  One that you'll want to fly (date) for a very long time.  Just my .02 cents.

Edited December 30, 2017 by Whiskey Charlie

[pirate]

May be a really nice plane, only way to find out is to take a look. The price wouldn’t scare me a bit if It’s a actual  9 or 10. 

[gsxrpilot]

6 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

I’ve seen this happen here before. If you wait for and expect to actually buy a plane for the MooneySpace cheap bastard consensus low ball price you will be in the market for a long time. The question is what is this plane worth to you?  It looks like a nice one to me. A very nice one, in fact. 

Jim

It's rare that Jim and I disagree... and we might not be in disagreement now.  But I'm sure I could show up and buy that plane for less than $45K. I've only bought two Mooneys, but I paid exactly what I thought they were worth and never spent more than a month looking.

That plane isn't flying and that hurts it's value. And the longer it doesn't fly, the more it hurts the value. Then engine's already at nearly 1300 hours. The 430 isn't worth much without the W. And @Whiskey Charlie said it better than anyone ever has... paint is like lipstick and should be valued as such. 

If someone showed up with an all cash offer, a cash deposit in hand of $5K (skip escrow and trust the seller with the deposit), a contract to buy, and a pre-buy already arranged and scheduled, I bet you get the plane for less than $45K. The problem I see around here is that people try to find the plane and negotiate the price and then try to figure out how to pay for it and who/where to get the pre-buy done. All of that shows a seller that the buyer either isn't serious or ready. And in either case, might as well hold out for a better offer.

I do like the airplane and would have it on the short list if I was in the market for a C or E. But you only get one chance to buy it right, and when the time comes to sell, you'll be glad you bought it right.

And I gotta say again, @Whiskey Charlie is spot on!

[DXB]

If flown and not sitting, this could be a really nice find! 60k seems excessive but 50k does not to me.   

[Jerry 5TJ]

These half-century old planes are now each unique. Their present condition is the result of how they’ve been flown, treated and neglected by literally dozens of owners & mechanics. You have to evaluate each one in depth to assess its worth.  

[Hector]

Look like a nice C. New paint nice panel, AP, speed mods, nice interior. If it was mine I would not sell it under 50K


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hank]

2 hours ago, DXB said:

If flown and not sitting, this could be a really nice find! 60k seems excessive but 50k does not to me.   

When I bought my C, it had accumulated 9 hours over the previous 2 years, mostly post-annual return to service flights or prospective buyers who the seller didn't trust to not go out and kill themselves in it. So far, it's been a pretty good 10-1/2 years, the only big surprise was a recently-overhauled magneto crapping out in less than 50 hours last spring (it's a Slick that I had sent through the Kelly plant here in Montgomery).

[J0nathan225]

I talked to the CFI last month, who is selling it for the owner:

 Non wass 430

 no GPSS

 4 place intercom, no headsets.

O/H mid 90s  

I was/am considering this A/C if available in 6 months. I believe I recall seeing it listed last July too. 

[Yooper Rocketman]

It appears it was originally listed at $59,900 and now reduced to $56,900.   That's not that far from $50k.  I would at least look at it if prepared and financially capable of buying it. That way an offer at less than the asking price is serious.  

I agree to not get too attached to it due to the looks but if the rest of it checks out decent I'd much rather own and fly a plane that looks good than one that looks like crap.  There IS SOME VALUE to the paint and interior as long as it's not hiding some serious mechanical issues.  That can be determined by a good prebuy inspection.

I'm not a big fan of low engine time as you're paying for something you have no guarantee of getting the time you paid for.  If over 50% of the engine time is gone, and figured into the price, your risk of that hurting you financially is significantly lower.  

Just my opinion. 

Tom

[MIm20c]

5 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

 And the longer it doesn't fly, the more it hurts the value. Then engine's already at nearly 1300 hours. The 430 isn't worth much without the W. 

I agree except I do feel the 430 non waas has a lot of value compared to every other non waas unit out there. It still commands almost 5k on the used market and the rack and wiring is almost ready to slide in a ifd440 that can easily be found used for 9k. That 4K delta is a lot easier to manage vs 12-13 ish for a new install at a dealer. 

[EricJ]

Looks like a nice airplane to me!  Nicely equipped and looks to have been reasonably taken care of.

That said, there are a lot of important details you can't see in an ad, but I'd say that one looks promising enough that if it appeals to you go take a look.   You're the arbiter of what value means to you, and if you haven't you can educate yourself by looking around at what else is out there.   Price does seem a bit high for a C, but it has a nice a/p, recently resealed tanks ($10k right there), etc.    If it is not corroded and has been maintained decently with no deferred maintenance, it might be a nice find.

 

[David_H]

6 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

I was just pointing out that when we here on MooneySpace who already own Mooneys and are not in the market for another one opine about a price of a prospective airplane, it is going to almost always be biased to the low side simply because we aren't really in the market for a plane and don't really want another one. It is easy to drive a hard bargain when you don't care if the seller accepts it or not. 

 

I don't think falling in love with a plane before the purchase is a good thing.

I also think that those that have owned are well suited to asses value. When that's considered, what would be the bias to undervalue? I can't see the reason.  

[David_H]

5 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

We don't have any skin in your transaction so it is easy for us to play hardball. Also, our ideal candidate airplanes and missions are very likely not going to be identical to yours, so we are going to weigh their strengths and deficiencies differently than you are. 

I'm genuinely not to trying to be argumentative with you. I hope I'm not coming over that way. I'd like nothing better than for you to find and purchase YOUR ideal Mooney. 

Jim

No worries Jim... we are good. I value your opinion and thank you very much for it. I know your intentions are good and helpful.

I'm try not to be argumentative either and hope I didn't/don't come off that way either. 

[David_H]

The reason for the post was to assess my ability to calculate an reasonable offer. I ran the numbers and came up very close to the first few posters (except I missed the WAASS GPS on my assessment).

I haven't looked this plane over in person and won't do so unless I know approximately how much I think the check should be written out for... given the information supplied was accurate. It's too much headache to go around kicking tires and I really don't have the time or patience for that approach. If a seller isn't interested in what I approximately value the asset on the front end... they aren't likely to "come around" later. If a seller doesn't want to have that conversation up front, then (in my mind) they aren't serious about selling yet and I want to move on quickly. 

The PPI, while not perfect, is meant to catch inaccuracies, airworthy issues, and dishonest representations. I don't want to pay for one unless there is a high probability of the transaction going through. I don't see a transaction going through unless the buyer has assessed the value and risks up and the seller has agreed to them.   

[David_H]

I also noticed my fantastically high reputation dropped from a whopping 3 to a 2 after this post which made me chuckle.

I normally only search and read as opposed to actively posting on boards. That said, if anyone feels slighted or wronged, feel free to send me a message or call me out publicly if anything I say inappropriate or inaccurate. One might even suggest that I go back to searching and reading as opposed to contributing to conversations.

I don't offend very easily and value opinions that differ from my own. I'm not always right.

[carusoam]

First airplane purchases can be the hardest...

• It is a challenge to know how well an airframe meets your expectations.
• Another challenge for selecting the engine.
• a third picking out the best aging instruments.
• Knowing the seller is often helpful, even if it’s a used plane 'dealer' like AAA and others...
• first plane offer often fails.  You are more ready on the second offer...

What helps is...

• Is the Short body the right airframe for you?
• Is there no value for fuel injection or 10% more hp to you?
• Will you be getting or using your IR to fly this plane?
• Are you looking to own one of the Best M20Cs available?
• Will your finance administrator be judging your purchase based on what they see in the first half hour?

The challenge I see if I were the buyer... 50amu is a lot of dough. I tended to focus on less image, and more capability...

In this case The E and F are in that price range and are worthy for consideration.  Unless you don't have back seaters or any desire for FI...

After a decade of C ownership, you know exactly which Mooney is next for you... 

Best regards,

-a-     From C to R....

 

[MIm20c]

37 minutes ago, David_H said:

I don't think falling in love with a plane before the purchase is a good thing.

I also think that those that have owned are well suited to asses value. When that's considered, what would be the bias to undervalue? I can't see the reason.  

As a current owner I look at plane values differently than when I was a buyer. Currently I’m on track to 200 hrs this year and plan to keep that up for the next few years.  I priced out a nice m20f in town to rent and the fee is $145 more per hour than my direct cost (fuel, oil / 35 hr replacement). This saves me around 29k per year that I can use for hanger, insurance, updates, etc that are currently around 5k.  I was willing to pay a premium because I did not want to sit on the sidelines trying to save another 5k. Now as I look for my next plane I have time on my side, one year or ten makes no difference to me.  When I see a nice plane I think would the seller let it go for $X?  If I call them up and the deal sounds good I’ll jump in my plane and go take a look with money in my pocket within a day or two. 

[David_H]

14 hours ago, Whiskey Charlie said:

I've learned  that aircraft are sort of like women.  There are three primary things to look for.   Paint is like lip stick, its superficial and might attract you, but paint and lipstick fade over time.  Try and look beyond just the eye appeal.  A great engine is like a good heart, it will always be there for you and never let you down as long as you take care of it.  Try and place more value on mechanical than cosmetic and you wont regret it.    And lastly, a wonderful avionics panel is like a beautiful personality.  Its a pleasure to be around and you'll love it more and more and wonder how you got along without it.   $56,900 seems a little high for a C model but she is very pretty.  Like others, I'd like it more south of $49K.  Spend just a tad more and you'll likely  find yourself with a really nice E or F with an amazing panel.  One that you'll want to fly (date) for a very long time.  Just my .02 cents.

That was a good post. I had to think about which three qualities of women are most important. Now... if there were only a way to keep all three maintained.

I used to fly behind some fairly nice panels and recently went back a couple of decades w.r.t. installed avionics. It did make a difference... but I'm not complaining either... it's just different flying. That said, going from two radios and WAAS GPS to one radio and no GPS did alter the way I fly and the types of flying that would be comfortable. 

I don't take many pictures from outside the plane while on the ground. Most of the pictures I've taken are of from the inside looking out at altitude... which probably describes my priorities. 

 

 

[David_H]

2 hours ago, David Herman said:

1. send 430 to Garmin for WAAS upgrade (about $3k ... I think you still can?)
2. Add KT-74 and you’re ADS-B Out ($2500)
3. Its got a great panel (2k or so) . Autopilot, (20k+ expense) paint (15-18k expense) interior (5-10k expense),  (You can dye that carpet and make it look new), 201 Windshield Mod (about 6k instalked) Cowl mod (about 1k installed), one piece belly (about 4-5k installed)  Prop overhauled (about a 2k expense) Tanks re-sealed in 2016 by WetWingologists (they’re experts, about 8k expense?) 

Having bought a C and spent many AMUs to get the plane to this level ... I can tell you I’ll NEVER sell the plane for 45k to someone who thinks they’re smart low-balling an offer, my widow might after I’m dead. You buy a $35k M20C and you will spend a lot more than 20k to get it to the level of this plane ... I’d rather pay a little more at purchase than a lot more to get a plane up to standard. 

Bargain yes, but lowball this guy NO!  I disagree some of the opinions expressed regarding the value of this plane. 

The engine is higher-mid-time ... that is the low point of this plane IMHO. ... and that is your bargaining point. 

My 2¢

(The plane is very close to my home ... if you want me to go take a look ... PM me) 

I want it to be clear that I'm not picking on this plane in particular. I didn't even know it had been sitting as long as it has been. There are others on the market similar to it (to an extent).

As I see it... the plane has been for sale for a considerable amount of time. Regardless about what anyone on here says (me included)... time on the market says it doesn't appear to be priced correctly. I don't think TAP was the first place it went up for sale. There's usually a local selling process that takes place before a plane makes it there. At this point, a lot of no's have taken place. Are all the potential buyers that have come by wrong?

The tanks being resealed recently is probably one of the most attractive things of the plane. However, it is a maintenance item and not an upgrade. I think it deserves considerable value consideration since we are talking about an aging fleet. However, buyers aren't going to pay for keeping the plane in an airworthy condition for past owners. The tanks were either in good shape when the owner purchased it or he bought at a discount.

Also, avionics improvements made to a plane are made for the current owner... not the future one. They add value and should be considered. However, being able to recover full value from an avionics seems unlikely. If that were the case, everyone would snap up the old shotgun panels and build them up how they want them with no worry of purchase costs.

The engine not being run... I didn't even realize that was the case on this one but it makes things even riskier.

Lastly... it seems to be getting to the point were widows are the ones selling planes and no amount of money makes any sense. Thanks?

 

Edit: I don't think David Herman's post was completely wrong but I'm not sure I fully agree with it either.

 

Edited December 30, 2017 by David_H

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, David_H said:

I want it to be clear that I'm not picking on this plane in particular. I didn't even know it had been sitting as long as it has been. There are others on the market similar to it (to an extent).

As I see it... the plane has been for sale for a considerable amount of time. Regardless about what anyone on here says (me included)... time on the market says it doesn't appear to be priced correctly. I don't think TAP was the first place it went up for sale. There's usually a local selling process that takes place before a plane makes it there. At this point, a lot of no's have taken place. Are all the potential buyers that have come by wrong?

The tanks being resealed recently is probably one of the most attractive things of the plane. However, it is a maintenance item and not an upgrade. I think it deserves considerable value consideration since we are talking about an aging fleet. However, buyers aren't going to pay for keeping the plane in an airworthy condition for past owners. The tanks were either in good shape when the owner purchased it or he bought at a discount.

Also, avionics improvements made to a plane are made for the current owner... not the future one. They add value and should be considered. However, being able to recover full value from an avionics seems unlikely. If that were the case, everyone would snap up the old shotgun panels and build them up how they want them with no worry of purchase costs.

The engine not being run... I didn't even realize that was the case on this one but it makes things even riskier.

Lastly... it seems to be getting to the point were widows are the ones selling planes and no amount of money makes any sense. Thanks?

 

Edit: I don't think David Herman's post was completely wrong but I'm not sure I fully agree with it either.

 

You're thinking very clearly here... 

I'd certainly take a nice C like this over an ill-equipped and worn out E or F. And I did a few years back. My C was better equipped than this one in every way, also had all the speed mods, and good paint with leather interior. I bought it and later sold it at $50K. I figure it was the very top of the C range, but that's the top. Anyone who thinks a C is worth more than $50K just needs to keep flying it until the excess has been flown out of it. 

[BKlott]

Some additional info:

Number: 676N
Last Action Date	2014-08-21
Airworthiness Date	1968-02-05		Expiration Date	2018-01-31
Manufacturer_Name	MOONEY		Model Name	M20C
Registrant Name	QUARLES JAMES T		Street	5443 HULSEY CIR
Registrant City	GAINESVILLE		Registrant State	GA
Registrant Zip Code	305045105		Country	UNITED STATES
Region	Southern		Registrant Type	Individual
Fract Owner			Certificate Issue Date	1992-08-20
Status	Second Notice for Registration Renewal
Serial Number	680032		Aircraft Type	Fixed wing single engine
Mode S Code	52171456		Year Mfr	1968
Aircraft Category	Land		Builder Certification	Type Certificated
Number Engines	1		Number Seats	4
Aircraft Weight	CLASS 1		Aircraft Cruising Speed	127
Airworthiness Classification	Standard		Approved Operation Codes	Normal
Engine Manufacturer	LYCOMING
Engine Model Name	O&VO-360 SER		Engine Type	Reciprocating
Engine Horsepower/Thrust	0		Fuel Consumed	0.00
------- History 1 -------
Last Action Date	2012-01-23
Registrant Name	QUARLES JAMES T		Street	5443 HULSEY CIR
Registrant City	GAINESVILLE		Registrant State	GA
Registrant Zip Code	305045105		Country	UNITED STATES
Region	Southern		Registrant Type	Individual
Fract Owner			Certificate Issue Date	1992-08-20
Status	First Notice for Registration Renewal
------- History 2 -------
Last Action Date	2007-10-25
Registrant Name	QUARLES JAMES T		Street	5443 HULSEY CIR
Registrant City	GAINESVILLE		Registrant State	GA
Registrant Zip Code	30504-5105		Country	UNITED STATES
Region	Southern		Registrant Type	Individual
Fract Owner			Certificate Issue Date	1992-08-20
Status	First Notice for Re- Registration/Renewal
------- History 3 -------
Last Action Date	2007-07-17
Registrant Name	QUARLES JAMES T		Street	380 JUNCTION TRACK
Registrant City	ROSWELL		Registrant State	GA
Registrant Zip Code	30075		Country	UNITED STATES
Region	Southern		Registrant Type	Individual
Fract Owner			Certificate Issue Date	1992-08-20
Status	The Triennial Aircraft Registration form was mailed and has not been returned by the Post Office
------- History 4 -------
Last Action Date	2004-07-20
Registrant Name	QUARLES JAMES T		Street	380 JUNCTION TRACK
Registrant City	ROSWELL		Registrant State	GA
Registrant Zip Code	30075		Country	UNITED STATES
Region	Southern		Registrant Type	Individual
Fract Owner			Certificate Issue Date	1992-08-20
Status	The Triennial Aircraft Registration form was mailed and has not been returned by the Post Office
------- History 5 -------
Last Action Date	2001-07-17
Registrant Name	QUARLES JAMES T		Street	380 JUNCTION TRACK
Registrant City	ROSWELL		Registrant State	GA
Registrant Zip Code	30075		Country	UNITED STATES
Region	Southern		Registrant Type	Individual
Fract Owner			Certificate Issue Date	1992-08-20
Status	The Triennial Aircraft Registration form was mailed and has not been returned by the Post Office
------- History 6 -------
Last Action Date	1998-07-15
Registrant Name	QUARLES JAMES T		Street	380 JUNCTION TRACK
Registrant City	ROSWELL		Registrant State	GA
Registrant Zip Code	30075		Country	UNITED STATES
Region	Southern		Registrant Type	Individual
Fract Owner			Certificate Issue Date	1992-08-20
Status	The Triennial Aircraft Registration form was mailed and has not been returned by the Post Office
***** No Deregistered Data Found *****
***** No Reserved Data Found *****
------- FAA Accident/Incident 1 -------
Occurrence Date	2002-11-28		Aircraft Make	MOONEY
Aircraft Model	M20C		Damage
Document Last Modified	2012-08-08
Narrative	(-23) AIRCRAFT WAS STOPPING AT FLEMING-MASON AIRPORT LOCATED AT FLEMINGSBURG, KY AS A FUELING STOP. ATC CLEARED THE AIRCRAFT FOR AN APPROACH. THE PILOT STATED THAT AFTER LANDING THE LANDING GEAR COLLAPSED. HE ALSO STATED THAT THE LANDING GEAR INDICATOR SHOWED THAT THE LANDING GEAR WAS DOWN. THE AIRCRAFT CAME TO REST APPROXIMATELY 250 FEET AFTER THE 1000' MARKER. MAINTENANCE PERSONNEL JACKED THE AIRCRAFT AND OPERATED THE LANDING GEAR SEVERAL TIMES AND FOUND IT TO BE FUNCTIONING NORMALLY. IN ADDITION THE PILOT STATED HE MADE TWO PRIOR LANDINGS AND THE GEAR PERFORMED NORMALLY. NEITHER THE PILOT OR MAINTENANCE PERSONNEL COULD EXPLAIN WHY THE LANDING GEAR COLLAPSED ON LANDING. THERE WAS NO STRUCTURAL DAMAGE TO THE AIRCRAFT. THE PROPELLER AND ENGINE WILL HAVE TO BE REPLACED DUE TO THE PROPELLER STRIKING THE RUNWAY SEVERAL TIMES AND THE SUDDEN STOPPAGE OF THE ENGINE.
***** No NTBS Accidents Found *****
***** No NTBS Pre 1982 Accidents Found *****
------- SDR 1 -------
Date Of Report	1977-05-16		Operator Control Number	Z197713600042
Date Of Occurrence			Aircraft Registration	676N
Aircraft Manufacturer	MOONEY		Aircraft Group Code	M20
Aircraft Manufacturer Model	M20G		Aircraft Make Model Sequence	5870216
Air Carrier Name	Unknown		Air Carrier Operation Code
Operation Type			Stage Of Operation	INSP/MAINT
Severity Factor	OVER 24 MO		Air Transport Association Code	Landing Gear Brake System
Precautionary Procedures	NONE		Nature Of Condition	OTHER
Segment	AIRFRAME		Descriptive Name Of Part	LINE
Defective Location On Aircraft	LT & RT WHEEL		Failed Part Condition	CRACKING
Part Total Time	1,168		Part Total Time Since Overhaul	1,168
Component Manufacturer			Component Manufacturer Model
Component Manufacturer Number			Manufacturer Part Number
Ata Code
Remarks	LT & RT FLEX BRAKE LINES FROM WHEEL CYL TO WHEEL WELL DRIED & CRACKING

[Hank]

1 hour ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Hey!  I’ve landed at Fleming-Mason several times going to and from Oshkosh. No mysterious gear collapses there, though. Small world. 

It was one of my stops as a Student Pilot on my Long XC, tracking westbound from York VOR.