Electronic Fuel/boost Pump

[gitmo234]

Good Morning,

I went to pick up my mooney after all the avionics upgrades and surprise, the electric fuel pump doesnt work. I caught it during the start up checklist. When I flip the switch i can hear it start to kick or like it tries to, but nothing happens. The avionics shop also has a maintenance shop, so I asked them to take a look at it. Problem is, that was 5 days ago and they havent done a thing with it as of a few minutes ago. I had planned to fly home for thanksgiving. I'm not a very happy camper all around. It took weeks to get avionics done as well. 

Questions are:

1) Is this flyable? When i was taking a look after i found the problem, someone on the field made the comment that it was "no big deal" and I should fly it home and fix it later. 

2) If the answer to number 1 is "yes", then is it reasonable to do so?

3) any tips or things to look at that might result in a temporary fix? they told me on the phone to stomp on the floorboard and it would probably kick on

 

EDIT: this is the boost pump

Edited November 17, 2017 by gitmo234

[Mooneymite]

If you fly it with an inoperative pump, the plane will "probably" make it just fine.  

Personally, I wouldn't consider a flight without the electric pump.  Depending on the equipment list for an E, it may be illegal.

[gitmo234]

Thanks! So lacking all my documentation at work, I did my best google research then called the CFI I worked with. His input was similar, he too mentioned that it was illegal to operate without it, although it would probably be fine to fly.  now lets hope i can get this fixed in time to leave wednesday

[Bob_Belville]

There are 2 fuel pumps listed on the 2A3: the electric one and the engine driven mechanical one.

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/60107bc8954c93a686256c24005b5075/$FILE/2A3.pdf

[gitmo234]

Thank you! I just got a call from the shop. They're taking a look at it. hopefully the avionics guys just did something screwy with the wiring. 

[Marauder]

My guess is that your E has an integral breaker/switch like my F does. I would make sure they connected the wires to it correctly. A real high probability they removed the switch at some point (a definite if you had a new panel made) and may have removed the wires from the switch.

[gitmo234]

3 minutes ago, Marauder said:

My guess is that your E has an integral breaker/switch like my F does. I would make sure they connected the wires to it correctly. A real high probability they removed the switch at some point (a definite if you had a new panel made) and may have removed the wires from the switch.

they didnt make a new panel but they did have it torn apart. While installing the new transponder and the skytrax 100, they found some of the wiring needed replaced (wrong kind or gauge) so they ripped a lot out).

now when you kick the boost pump on you hear a thud like there's a tap on the floor, and nothing. click the switch three times and you hear "bump bump bump".

[neilpilot]

Obviously if the pump makes a noise when switched on the wires at the panel are unlikely to be disconnected.  Once, when I had my 64E, my boost pump failed to run with the same symptoms.  It turned out it was a combination of a cold day and a less-than-ideal battery.  Probably not your problem, but are you confident your voltage isn't dropping when you try to run your pump?

My pump continued to work fine for the following few years, until I disposed of the E.

[gitmo234]

8 minutes ago, neilpilot said:

Obviously if the pump makes a noise when switched on the wires at the panel are unlikely to be disconnected.  Once, when I had my 64E, my boost pump failed to run with the same symptoms.  It turned out it was a combination of a cold day and a less-than-ideal battery.  Probably not your problem, but are you confident your voltage isn't dropping when you try to run your pump?

My pump continued to work fine for the following few years, until I disposed of the E.

The battery is only a year old, so I hope that's not the issue.

He did come back and say it is either locked up, or locking up. He tried his usual "tap" with something soft and it just continued to make the "thud" noise. I'm flying home for thanksgiving so I had to have it running. Only viable choice was $1200 brand new from Illinois via 2 day UPS, will be installed Monday

[Marauder]

47 minutes ago, gitmo234 said:

The battery is only a year old, so I hope that's not the issue.

He did come back and say it is either locked up, or locking up. He tried his usual "tap" with something soft and it just continued to make the "thud" noise. I'm flying home for thanksgiving so I had to have it running. Only viable choice was $1200 brand new from Illinois via 2 day UPS, will be installed Monday

DId they put a charger on it when they did all this work? Some avionics shops are notorious for driving your battery into a deep discharge. 

[Tommy]

7 hours ago, gitmo234 said:

The battery is only a year old, so I hope that's not the issue.

He did come back and say it is either locked up, or locking up. He tried his usual "tap" with something soft and it just continued to make the "thud" noise. I'm flying home for thanksgiving so I had to have it running. Only viable choice was $1200 brand new from Illinois via 2 day UPS, will be installed Monday

This is the part that irks most owners. You sent the plane to the shop and something that was previously working fine happened to break right after the job was done. You were very convinced that it had to be something silly that the shop did but they didn't tell you. Your suspicion then grew when they asked $1200 to replace the part instead of troubleshooting the problem systemically, taking advantage of your desire to fly away for thanks giving...

"Yes, we can take a look at it and maybe it's something simple to fix but it will take some time and it might still end up with the pump being defective. In that scenario, you won't have the plane until Friday week."

"And, no, we won't refund you anything if the new pump didn't fix the problem either."

Cynical, I know but it doesn't help when this problem was identified 5 days and they didn't do anything until you pressed them.

 

[Ron McBride]

After the annual on a 310 that I was flying, the fuel provided enough fuel for taxi and run up. After takeoff, turned the boost pump off, fuel flow went from 23 gallons per hour to 9 gallons.  Do you feel lucky? 

Ron

[N201MKTurbo]

Just now, N803RM said:

After the annual on a 310 that I was flying, the fuel provided enough fuel for taxi and run up. After takeoff, turned the boost pump off, fuel flow went from 23 gallons per hour to 9 gallons.  Do you feel lucky? 

Ron

Oh, but you still have the spare engine.

What kind of 310 are you flying? I've flown a '66 J 8 hours in the last week.

[bradp]

I stopped for fuel one day and that’s when my electric boost pump bit it.  Nice airport - fancy shop that catered to a turbine fleet of 208s.  

My only complaint with the repair process is I was charged something like 6 hrs labor for the R&R - when I brought up this point of contention the DOM whined “but it’s a Mooney”.  

The best part was that there was commercial service and therefore rental cars.  The worst part was my speeding ticket on my unhappy drive home. 

Boost pump care and feeding-

- don’t forget to turn it off.  We all have.  Your $1200 pump will burn out faster than a landing light if run continuously (must be part of the TSO).  

- don’t use the pump to empty a tank when doing tank work (run needlessly) 

- don’t use the pump to pump air (ie make sure there’s fuel in the gascolator before turning on). 

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Tommy said:

This is the part that irks most owners. You sent the plane to the shop and something that was previously working fine happened to break right after the job was done. You were very convinced that it had to be something silly that the shop did but they didn't tell you. Your suspicion then grew when they asked $1200 to replace the part instead of troubleshooting the problem systemically, taking advantage of your desire to fly away for thanks giving...

"Yes, we can take a look at it and maybe it's something simple to fix but it will take some time and it might still end up with the pump being defective. In that scenario, you won't have the plane until Friday week."

"And, no, we won't refund you anything if the new pump didn't fix the problem either."

Cynical, I know but it doesn't help when this problem was identified 5 days and they didn't do anything until you pressed them.

 

Equally irritating is when things do go wrong and the maintainer is accused of breaking it, when it was dying when it arrived at the shop.  

This has happened to me, during the annual the leaking vacuum pump drive seal was replaced, the pump fails afterward, whose fault is it?  Mine for identifing and replacing the seal which would have killed the pump anyway, or the owner’s whose seal was leaking and killing the pump anyway.

Clarence

[Bob_Belville]

3 hours ago, bradp said:

Boost pump care and feeding-

- don’t forget to turn it off.  We all have.  Your $1200 pump will burn out faster than a landing light if run continuously (must be part of the TSO).  

- don’t use the pump to empty a tank when doing tank work (run needlessly) 

- don’t use the pump to pump air (ie make sure there’s fuel in the gascolator before turning on). 

I'm not so sure that the "boost" pump is that fragile. We do use it to drain the tanks. And importantly it might have to run as a backup to the engine driven pump, see a previous post where someone described a failure of their primary pump.

I am assured, though I can't confirm that on the Weldon site, that the electric fuel pump on my E is rated for continuous operation. I suspect someone here will know for sure. My notes are that I have a Weldon 8164. (The Weldon site lists an 8164-A but that's a 25 gph, 5.0 psi, for M20C, D, G. It list  18020-A as their M20E pump - 35 gph, 25 psi.)

But, I routinely use the pump for pre-start and take off only, probably 2 minutes per flight. 

[MIm20c]

3 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Equally irritating is when things do go wrong and the maintainer is accused of breaking it, when it was dying when it arrived at the shop.  

You really need to provide a 6 month spinner to tail warranty after you touch the plane, it’s the right/responsible thing to do.  

[gitmo234]

I just want to try out my new fancy 440 and transponder with magic buttons instead of knobs, and ADS-B in/out. I also just want to fly to missouri for thanksgiving.

I think the airplane has found a new home though. I had never been to this airport, and its a 45 minute drive from my house. I live in NOVA so thats nothing, but this is all backroads so traffic is considerably less. Unlike the time it took me 2.5 hours to go 18 miles to my previous home base.

[gitmo234]

Just now, MIm20c said:

You really need to provide a 6 month spinner to tail warranty after you touch the plane, it’s the right/responsible thing to do.  

Yeah, I see both points and just to clarify here. I have NO clue whether it was avionics guys or not. I'm not qualified to make that guess, but I WAS hoping it was a case of "oops we forgot to reconnect this". Doesnt appear to be that way. 

On another note "but its a mooney" doesnt fly with me on this part. I'm now aware of how to access the fuel/boost pump or whatever we want to call it. 

[MIm20c]

1 minute ago, gitmo234 said:

I think the airplane has found a new home though. I had never been to this airport, and its a 45 minute drive from my house. I live in NOVA so thats nothing, but this is all backroads so traffic is considerably less. Unlike the time it took me 2.5 hours to go 18 miles to my previous home base.

I know what you mean. Currently driving 25 mins down a busy truck filled highway.  Trying to get a hanger at a smaller airport that has nice country roads to take the MC on. 

[jlunseth]

This one drives me nuts.  We are all taught only half the answer on what equipment needs to be on board and working, in order to dispatch.  We learn TOMATO FLAMES, which reflects what is in Sec. 91.205, but as far as M20's are concerned, the answer is not in 205, its in 91.7, which says that no person may operate an aircraft unless it is in an airworthy condition.  It also says the pilot is responsible for insuring the aircraft is airworthy.  M20's are born under a Type Certificate.  That lists, in detail, the equipment that must be on the aircraft and operating, down to the manufacturer and model number of particular components.  If something in the list is missing or not working, then the aircraft is not within its TC and by definition, not airworthy.  

Here we have an OP who obviously is concerned enough to find out from a number of sources what his options are, and to get the aircraft repaired before dispatch, which is the sign of a good, smart pilot.  

I am just saying that for Mooneys, pretty much all these "can I fly it" questions are answered by the TC, and by the various rules that govern STC'd, TSO'd, and 337'd substitutes.

[N201MKTurbo]

4 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

I know what you mean. Currently driving 25 mins down a busy truck filled highway.  Trying to get a hanger at a smaller airport that has nice country roads to take the MC on. 

I commuted between Phoenix and Tucson for 20 years with the Mooney. For most of the trip you can see the I10 freeway. I know I'm a bit of a sociopath but when I saw a wreck on the freeway and cars backed up for 20 miles it put a smile on my face.

[gitmo234]

1 hour ago, jlunseth said:

This one drives me nuts.  We are all taught only half the answer on what equipment needs to be on board and working, in order to dispatch.  We learn TOMATO FLAMES, which reflects what is in Sec. 91.205, but as far as M20's are concerned, the answer is not in 205, its in 91.7, which says that no person may operate an aircraft unless it is in an airworthy condition.  It also says the pilot is responsible for insuring the aircraft is airworthy.  M20's are born under a Type Certificate.  That lists, in detail, the equipment that must be on the aircraft and operating, down to the manufacturer and model number of particular components.  If something in the list is missing or not working, then the aircraft is not within its TC and by definition, not airworthy.  

Here we have an OP who obviously is concerned enough to find out from a number of sources what his options are, and to get the aircraft repaired before dispatch, which is the sign of a good, smart pilot.  

I am just saying that for Mooneys, pretty much all these "can I fly it" questions are answered by the TC, and by the various rules that govern STC'd, TSO'd, and 337'd substitutes.

This reminds me of when I bought my Cessna. It was remarkably unmarked inside so I dug. I dug and dig and after reading tons of government docs I finally found where it pointed to what was required (before I knew the TC, etc). Took about a month but I found every single required marking, placard, etc and ordered them. I also found out that the 1956 airworthiness certificate issued from a few agencies before the FAA was “sort of” valid. Illegal? No, but if caught with it I would have to have it updated and replaced. 

 

Despite the kicking and screaming of people on another board, swearing up and done the FAA would bend me and the airplane over a barre if I took it to the FSDO for replacement, etc, I did it.

Took ten minutes. He reviewed the docs, primarily interested in the historical aspect, and I had a new airworthiness doc that visit. 

Seems there’s too many places for information. Might be all legs and airworthy by this doc, but check over here and I’m so far out of reg the thing is grounded

 

 

[Ron McBride]

16 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Oh, but you still have the spare engine.

What kind of 310 are you flying? I've flown a '66 J 8 hours in the last week.

Oh, yes the spare engine.  I almost needed it once, engine failure just before rotation, chose to abort that takeoff. I have about 500 hrs in a 310G in the 80's and 90's.

I like everything running correctly, the back up systems are for getting to the nearest airport now.

Ron

[kpaul]

5 hours ago, N803RM said:

engine failure just before rotation, chose to abort that takeoff.

Chose? Why would you ever continue if you were below Vr?  Different if you are above Vr but below Vmca.