Nav/Com Advice

[Skates97]

I think I have settled on the direction I am going on the panel. This is what it currently looks like (minus the ADF and Loran in the center stack and the defunct compass in the upper left). The GPS on the yoke has also been replaced by a tablet.

I want to put in an engine monitor (most likely an EDM 830) and then down the road, probably next Spring/Summer a GPS/Nav/Com. My #1 Nav/Com is a Narco Mark 12D and the #2 is a Narco Escort II. I am thinking of placing the EDM 830 where the current #2 radio is under the CDI.  The GPS will eventually go in the center stack.

At the same time I put in the EDM I want to put in a Nav/Com with GS and have it connected to the CDI. The Mark 12D will be relegated to just Com status and be the #2 used for picking up the ATIS/AWOS. When the GPS goes in the Mark 12D will be pulled out.

What are your thoughts for a Nav/Com to put in as a temporary #1 radio and eventually filling the #2 role? KX-155, SL 30, something else? (Also depends on what I can find in the used market). A different route that I haven’t considered?

I don’t know what GPS I’ll be going with but I do like the Avidyne’s. (I’m not currently drinking the Garmin Kool-Aid…)

[KSMooniac]

I know you're not on the Garmin train, but the G5 (and likely whatever comes next) will only interface with their latest nav/com boxes, and none of the legacy stuff...keep that in mind for future upgrades and potential resale. I'd say SL30 at a minimum.

 

I think it might be false economy to do a new install of an old radio like a KX-155 or similar these days.

 

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[LANCECASPER]

A couple thoughts if you want to save some money long term . . . 

1) Since it's a new engine monitor install, for not tons more instead of the EDM-830 you can do the EDM-900 certified and put it where the ship's engine gauges are now. The labor should be about the same and you never have to worry about faulty 50 years old gauges again. The older analog gauges eventually all fail at some point

2) If you don't want to spend the money on a WAAS GPS, a used Apollo GX-50 and GX-55 is a slide-in replacement for the Flybuddy Loran or GPS (of course you need a GPS antenna if it's replacing a Loran). Then an ADS-B out transponder (Garmin GTX-335 would do the trick) and you'd have ADS-B out or you could do the Garmin GDL-82 which uses your transponder.

[MIm20c]

You should be able to find a nice non-waas gns 400 for around 3-3.5 amu. Have the installer wire the rack for for the 440 which will be a slide in installation when the funds allow. IMO anything else is a waste of install money.  Yes I would recommend buying a used 155 or gx60 to replace a broken unit but never for a fresh install.  My attitude has always been live with something until you can afford to fix/do it right, don’t give it a half effort. 

[gsxrpilot]

I'm with @LANCECASPER. Stretch and get the EDM-900. Then clear out all the engine instruments including the three round dials on the far right. Put those all up for sale to make of the difference in cost from the 830 to the 900.

I just did a pretty extensive panel makeover in my 252... but as part of all of that I bought and installed a used KX165. It drives a CDI and provides a second com. I bought it from someone here on MS for $1 AMU complete. So I'm not opposed to doing that.

Going back to the beginning... I'd be watching Beechtalk and Barnstormers and the Grimm Reaper here on MooneySpace for great deals. You might also periodically check with Chase at Avionics Source for closeout deals.  Know what you're looking for and when a great deal comes along, buy it and set it aside. I collected avionics for about 8 months before starting the upgrade.

[MIm20c]

I did not read the OP’s post closely enough. Thought the plan was to keep the 12d in the com 2 position for good and just use a 155 et al for a short term fix to be replaced with a gps/nav/com. If you are keeping and sliding to position 2 I’d say a nice sl30 would be perfect. 

[Skates97]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

I'm with @LANCECASPER. Stretch and get the EDM-900. Then clear out all the engine instruments including the three round dials on the far right. Put those all up for sale to make of the difference in cost from the 830 to the 900.

I just did a pretty extensive panel makeover in my 252... but as part of all of that I bought and installed a used KX165. It drives a CDI and provides a second com. I bought it from someone here on MS for $1 AMU complete. So I'm not opposed to doing that.

Going back to the beginning... I'd be watching Beechtalk and Barnstormers and the Grimm Reaper here on MooneySpace for great deals. You might also periodically check with Chase at Avionics Source for closeout deals.  Know what you're looking for and when a great deal comes along, buy it and set it aside. I collected avionics for about 8 months before starting the upgrade.

The 900 is financially doable, just was balancing need vs wants and the extra didn't seem like it made sense. I hadn't considered that I could sell off the old instruments to recoup some expense... Sometimes things seem far too obvious. I got a great quote to put in the 830, I'll have to give him a call tomorrow to see how much more the install would be of the 900. (I already have pricing on the 900 and it isn't much of a stretch.)

I have been watching Beechtalk and Barnstormers and will continue and have been in touch with Chase. I should send @Alan Fox a message.

36 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

I did not read the OP’s post closely enough. Thought the plan was to keep the 12d in the com 2 position for good and just use a 155 et al for a short term fix to be replaced with a gps/nav/com. If you are keeping and sliding to position 2 I’d say a nice sl30 would be perfect. 

Correct, the plan is to slide whatever I put in now to the #2 position in the future and take the 12D out. 

[Skates97]

4 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

A couple thoughts if you want to save some money long term . . . 

1) Since it's a new engine monitor install, for not tons more instead of the EDM-830 you can do the EDM-900 certified and put it where the ship's engine gauges are now. The labor should be about the same and you never have to worry about faulty 50 years old gauges again. The older analogs gauges eventually all fail at some point

2) If you don't want to spend the money on a WAAS GPS, a used Apollo GX-50 and GX-55 is a slide-in replacement for the Flybuddy Loran or GPS (of course you need a GPS antenna if it's replacing a Loran). Then an ADS-B out transponder (Garmin GTX-335 would do the trick) and you'd have ADS-B out or you could do the Garmin GDL-82 which uses your transponder.

Are you saying put it over on the far right or below the transponder where the 6-pack of gauges are? I would think it would go nicely above the transponder but then I'm a rookie when it comes to panel layout.

[LANCECASPER]

Just now, Skates97 said:

Are you saying put it over on the far right or below the transponder where the 6-pack of gauges are? I would think it would go nicely above the transponder but then I'm a rookie when it comes to panel layout.

Above the transponder would work well.

[Bug Smasher]

You may want to do a modern audio panel while you have the stack apart. Good luck with the upgrades!

[Skates97]

1 hour ago, Bug Smasher said:

You may want to do a modern audio panel while you have the stack apart. Good luck with the upgrades!

Mission creep.....

[KSMooniac]

Definitely go straight for the -900 instead of the -830. Leave enough slack in the wire harnesses so you can move it around in the future too in case you do another round of upgrades.

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[N6758N]

9 hours ago, Skates97 said:

The 900 is financially doable, just was balancing need vs wants and the extra didn't seem like it made sense. I hadn't considered that I could sell off the old instruments to recoup some expense...

I wouldn't bank on that Richard (pun intended). You might be able to get $1-200 for your old instruments total. There are tons of them out there and no one wants them. I ended up giving mine away. Just an FYI. I do agree 100% about stepping up to the 900 if you can swing it though!

[Skates97]

41 minutes ago, N6758N said:

I wouldn't bank on that Richard (pun intended). You might be able to get $1-200 for your old instruments total. There are tons of them out there and no one wants them. I ended up giving mine away. Just an FYI. I do agree 100% about stepping up to the 900 if you can swing it though!

Or they become a paperweight in my office. 

[MIm20c]

2 hours ago, N6758N said:

I wouldn't bank on that Richard (pun intended). You might be able to get $1-200 for your old instruments total. There are tons of them out there and no one wants them. I ended up giving mine away. Just an FYI. I do agree 100% about stepping up to the 900 if you can swing it though!

Don’t let my wife hear this!  I use the old equipment sales tactic for all of my discretionary upgrade purchases.  It helps make the numbers “work out”. 

[N6758N]

9 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

Don’t let my wife hear this!  I use the old equipment sales tactic for all of my discretionary upgrade purchases.  It helps make the numbers “work out”. 

Ha. No worries, I do the same thing with my airplane partner to justify upgrades...

[Oldguy]

10 hours ago, Skates97 said:

Mission creep.....

Unfortunately, it might also be the least expensive way to go. Opening up the panel multiple times is never the most cost effective method to upgrade. There was a PMA 8000 for about $400 on MS I missed. Would have looked good in my panel.

For your "new" #1 radio, I personally like my KX-165 with its ability to show the radial of the VOR on the active frequency in the standby frequency position, but the CDI required for the 165 may be different from your current one as the KX-165 includes the VOR/LOC converter function within the box. 

[smccray]

SL30s are around but very expensive. Would be a good option. 

I wouldn’t put any money into installation of a nav radio that can’t provide a digital nav signal.  Starting point would be an SL30 or a GNC255. Both are expensive options, but I believe the Dynon system is the first step in significant upgrades to panel capability; I suspect the Garmin competitive option to Dynon will have the same limitation if a digital output from the radio.

That said- since your #1 radio is going to be your #2, I would look at radios that are compatible with the indicator in your panel (king?). A lot of indicators are going to come out of panels over the next few years so if the indicator or the panel goes bad there should be plenty of used options.  If I were redoing a panel today, a #2 nav radio would be low priority; a lot of GA panels are omitting a #2 nav radio.

[Skates97]

31 minutes ago, smccray said:

SL30s are around but very expensive. Would be a good option. 

I wouldn’t put any money into installation of a nav radio that can’t provide a digital nav signal.  Starting point would be an SL30 or a GNC255. Both are expensive options, but I believe the Dynon system is the first step in significant upgrades to panel capability; I suspect the Garmin competitive option to Dynon will have the same limitation if a digital output from the radio.

That said- since your #1 radio is going to be your #2, I would look at radios that are compatible with the indicator in your panel (king?). A lot of indicators are going to come out of panels over the next few years so if the indicator or the panel goes bad there should be plenty of used options.  If I were redoing a panel today, a #2 nav radio would be low priority; a lot of GA panels are omitting a #2 nav radio.

Because they are going with two GPS/Comms or just a single GPS/Comm and the #2 as a Comm only?

This may sound like a stupid question, but I haven't ventured into the IFR world yet... What are they doing for any redundancy? Just rely upon the #1 GPS/Nav/Com for all their IFR needs?

[smccray]

32 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

Because they are going with two GPS/Comms or just a single GPS/Comm and the #2 as a Comm only?

This may sound like a stupid question, but I haven't ventured into the IFR world yet... What are they doing for any redundancy? Just rely upon the #1 GPS/Nav/Com for all their IFR needs?

The first time I read what i’m about to parrot I rejected it. Then after I thought about it it made sense to me.  

I fly light IFR- i’ve been instrument rated for ~4 years.  In that time I have never flown anything other than my GPS.  I’ll mess with the the vors to confirm they’re accurate, and i’ve flown an ILS, but I haven’t needed the second nav radio once.  My #1 WAAS gps has a nav radio.

In effect- the vor system backs up gps.  If GPS fails I’ll use my #1 navigator.  If the #1 nav/comm fails I’ll use my handheld GPS with a WAAS GPS as a backup.  Very unlikely secenario where a second backup nav/comm is valuable where I don’t have another option.

If you fly an approach to an airfield that requires 2 nav radios then okay, but there aren’t too many places where a second nav radio will be that helpful.

[Skates97]

35 minutes ago, smccray said:

The first time I read what i’m about to parrot I rejected it. Then after I thought about it it made sense to me.  

I fly light IFR- i’ve been instrument rated for ~4 years.  In that time I have never flown anything other than my GPS.  I’ll mess with the the vors to confirm they’re accurate, and i’ve flown an ILS, but I haven’t needed the second nav radio once.  My #1 WAAS gps has a nav radio.

In effect- the vor system backs up gps.  If GPS fails I’ll use my #1 navigator.  If the #1 nav/comm fails I’ll use my handheld GPS with a WAAS GPS as a backup.  Very unlikely secenario where a second backup nav/comm is valuable where I don’t have another option.

If you fly an approach to an airfield that requires 2 nav radios then okay, but there aren’t too many places where a second nav radio will be that helpful.

Hmm, interesting points. I've found a SL 30 and an SL40, both with tray/connectors. The SL40 is $1700 cheaper. Anticipating putting in GPS down the road so perhaps save the money and put in the SL40. I don't plan on starting the IFR until I have the GPS in the panel at which point the 40 would just be a #2 comm. Decisions....

[kpaul]

8 hours ago, smccray said:

I fly light IFR- i’ve been instrument rated for ~4 years.

I fly light to heavy IFR - I've been instrument rated for over 15 years.  I would never fly with out a second nav/comm.  My work plane has dual 430W, my personal plane has a GTN 650/SL 30. I use the second comm on every flight and back up the GPS with ground based navaids enroute and on approaches.

[Marauder]

The second Com isn’t thought about much until you need it. I have a GTN 650 as the primary and had a Narco MK20 D+ as the backup. I lost the 650 on an IFR due to interference caused by a newly installed JPI 900. My Narco decided it was time to take a rest.

Made for an interesting flight. I elected to pull the Narco and installed a Garmin GNC 255B. Great radio with nice features. If you intend on going IFR, you will want a decent #2 that you can rely on.


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[StevenL757]

On 10/17/2017 at 6:30 PM, LANCECASPER said:

A couple thoughts if you want to save some money long term . . . 

1) Since it's a new engine monitor install, for not tons more instead of the EDM-830 you can do the EDM-900 certified and put it where the ship's engine gauges are now. The labor should be about the same and you never have to worry about faulty 50 years old gauges again. The older analogs gauges eventually all fail at some point

Totally agree on the EDM-900 or even EDM-930 if budget permits...

[Skates97]

2 hours ago, kpaul said:

I fly light to heavy IFR - I've been instrument rated for over 15 years.  I would never fly with out a second nav/comm.  My work plane has dual 430W, my personal plane has a GTN 650/SL 30. I use the second comm on every flight and back up the GPS with ground based navaids enroute and on approaches.

If I had to wager a guess I would say those without the second Nav are using Foreflight or some other program on a tablet as backup.