M20E with crankcase rcondition good or bad?

[Paul S.]

Hi All,

Found 65 E for sale in WI, everything seem to be ok but what caught my eyes was an engine.

It has TTAF – 2915

Last Annual – 1/2/2017

Lycoming IO-360-A1A 200hp
1555 SMOH
1415 STOH
Overhauled – 12/15/1972
Top Overhaul – 2/2/1976
Crank case reconditioned, new camshaft, new lifters by Poplar Grove Airmotive – 11/28/2012
Fuel Injection System Overhauled by G&N – 1/16/2006
Tanis Engine Heater with Cylinder Wraps
Latest Compressions – 78, 78, 77, 76 /80

Was wondering what might be reason for crank case reconditioned as well as new camshaft and lifters? Owner said aircraft has no known DH.

Should this be something that need to be concern with?

Any comment or suggestion are greatly appreciated.

Thanks all

 

 

[Alan Fox]

Probably a spalled cam....   P.G. would not have put it back together w/bad cylinders.......Probably a bonus should make it beyond TBO

[Smiles201]

I would try to figure out why he did not go ahead and do a bottom overhaul at that time; anything else he has skimped on?

[Godfather]

Who cares if it has damage history. Engine is almost 40 years since overhaul...whatever the reason I'd be glad the engine was opened up. 

[kortopates]

Bottom line is that it hasn't been majored since '72 meaning the engine has 0 residual hours and value. But that doesn't mean it can't fly reliably for some time to come. But IMO the seller really cost himself in resale value by doing it that way, but not knowing all the details he could still come out on top with the sale.


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[tigers2007]

I wonder if Poplar Grove is willing to share their customer notes regarding the work done (if such notes exist). It would be nice to know some background.


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[carusoam]

Welcome aboard Paul.

1) There are engine OHs...

2) There are factory remans...

3) There are brand new engines...

4) then there this... It doesn't fit in the first three categories...

It looks like it got taken apart along the way.  Often an IO360 gets opened up to replace a bad cam.  Lycoming learned a lesson about materials along the way.

Are you an engine guy? Do you like maintaining machines?

The reason I ask, this one may be better for somebody else.

Definitely discuss what has been done with the owner.  Just to understand how this qualifies as OHd...

These are just PP type questions that come to mind.  While I was typing you got some really good insight from the previous posters...  

Best regards,

-a-

[Shadrach]

If PG opened it up it was likely IRAN'd (Inspect and Repair as Necessary).  If they had sent everything out to be measured before reassembly and met service limits or better, they technically could have called it an overhaul. In all likelyhood a spalled cam lobe or a crankcase crack prompted the tear down.  They likely found a crank that still looked polished and crank and rod bearings with little wear. It's unlikely the cam and lifters faired as well so they were replaced.  

There is nothing wrong with having a crankcase overhauled and in fact it's quite common. Most folks would be surprised at how many engines are found to have minor case cracks when they're torn down for overhaul.

Price it as run out and fly it on condition. In all likelyhood it will give good service for many hours and years to come. 

The only thing that might concern me is the valves. While my experience is anecdotal and not data driven, I have seen two high calander time Lyc engines swallow valves. This could be mitigated with an initial detailed boroscope inspection and subsequent boroscope inspections at every annual as well as a engine monitoring in between annuals.  

[RLCarter]

2 hours ago, Paul S. said:

Crank case reconditioned, new camshaft, new lifters by Poplar Grove Airmotive – 11/28/2012

how many hours has it flown since 2012?

[kortopates]

25 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

If PG opened it up it was likely IRAN'd (Inspect and Repair as Necessary).  If they had sent everything out to be measured before reassembly and met service limits or better, they technically could have called it an overhaul. In all likelyhood a spalled cam lobe or a crankcase crack prompted the tear down.  They likely found a crank that still looked polished and crank and rod bearings with a little wear. It's unlikely the cam and lifters faired as well so thery were replaced.  

There is nothing wrong with having a crankcase overhauled and in fact it's quite common. Most folks would be surprised at how many engines are found to have minor case cracks when they're torn down for service.

Price it as run out and fly it on condition. In all likelyhood it will give good service for many hours and years to come. 

The only thing that might concern me is the valves. While my experience is anecdotal and not data driven, I have seen two high calander time Lyc engines swallow valves. This could be mitigated with an initial detailed boroscope inspection and subsequent boroscope inspections at every annual as well as a engine monitoring in between annuals.  

Ross nailed it when he said it was IRAN'd - that's exactly what it was. A Major overhaul has a legal meaning with the FAA and requires the engine re builder to overhaul in accordance with the manufacturers guidance. This means a lot of new parts and overhauled parts must installed into the engine, including new hoses, overhauling the magneto's and overhauling the starter, new piston pins, new rings, new fuel pump etc. See Lyc SB 240W for the comprehensive list of parts that must be replaced. But whenever a partial overhaul is done like this, its strictly a repair and the time since major overhaul doesn't get to be legally reset since the last real major overhaul. Which was apparently 1972 or 45 years ago and I'll assume 1555 hrs ago. So the engine isn't high time in operational hours but its chronologically very old which is most likely why the owner had to re-do the bottom since we see seldom operated engine suffer from corrosion quite commonly; especially the cam in lycoming since it sits up high in the engine. 

SB 240W Mandatory Parts Replacement at Overhaul and During Repair or Maintenance.pdf

[Paul S.]

Thanks all for your feedback, 

carusoam, I am not an engine guy by any mean but learning along the way.

Anyway, I haven't spoke with a seller just yet, left him message and still waiting for his response. Just want to share with you guys before hand so at least I know what to ask him once he call me back. Do you think is this something that I should walk away or should I have Mooney mechanic look closely into it?

Thanks again.

[KSMooniac]

If it has been flying regularly and recently, no reason to walk away. It should not get much credit for engine condition, though. If you're using a value tool, I'd consider the engine as runout, but consider flying it for a while if you purchase it. Many experienced buyers would prefer to buy a runout and overhaul/replace to their specs. That is far better than rolling the dice with a 500 hr engine and expecting to get another 1500 hours but get an ugly surprise in that first year...

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[DonMuncy]

As long as you have a reserve of $ for an overhaul, go for it. Price it like a run-out engine. You may be able to fly it for several years "for free", and if it needs the overhaul fairly soon, you broke even. 

[carusoam]

Comes down to choices...

1) it's not new

2) it doesn't have a life expectancy.

3) it isn't expected to die either.

4) without knowledge of how often it has been run, how it has been stored, or what environment it lives in...

5) people have said price it as run-out.

This is great advice, specially if you want to hang a new motor on it...

Might not be as good advice if you intend to fly it for as long as possible.

Really not good at all if you are low time and short on experience.

would be worse if you fly out of a city centered airport....

Part of the PPI would be looking into the engine to tell what it looks like.  How is the cam?  Why did it get replaced? What changed since? What killed the first one?  Is the second one on the same track?

These are the questions that come to my mind. I went with 1500hours on the engine when I bought my plane.  A point I felt comfortable with looking forward to the Oh way off into the future...

Best regards,

-a-

Edited April 19, 2017 by carusoam

[MyNameIsNobody]

Good advise on pricing as a runout.  There are a lot of assessories that may or may not start to cause reliability issues and nickel and dime you.  I bought a similar engine.  I flew for 100ish hours before a case half separation resulted in oil on the windscreen.  These engines will generally give a lot of warning signs to ultimate distress.  Grenade-ing over a busy airport is not something I would be losing sleep and waking up sweaty over.  Just know you are buying a run out engine that has had some recent work and PLAN on doing an overhaul in the not to distant future.  If you buy right and get years of bonus flying before major.  GOOD ON YOU.  There are E's on controller for 35k that appear "sounder" than this one.  What are you looking at paying for this badboy, if I may ask?

[MyNameIsNobody]

12 hours ago, Paul S. said:

Hi All,

Found 65 E for sale in WI, everything seem to be ok but what caught my eyes was an engine.

It has TTAF – 2915

Last Annual – 1/2/2017

Lycoming IO-360-A1A 200hp
1555 SMOH
1415 STOH
Overhauled – 12/15/1972
Top Overhaul – 2/2/1976
Crank case reconditioned, new camshaft, new lifters by Poplar Grove Airmotive – 11/28/2012
Fuel Injection System Overhauled by G&N – 1/16/2006
Tanis Engine Heater with Cylinder Wraps
Latest Compressions – 78, 78, 77, 76 /80

Was wondering what might be reason for crank case reconditioned as well as new camshaft and lifters? Owner said aircraft has no known DH.

Should this be something that need to be concern with?

Any comment or suggestion are greatly appreciated.

Thanks all

 

 

So new plane in '66.  In first six years  1400 hours.  Yowza.  Overhaul.  Four more years and cylinders.  Then 40 years until crank. I would want to know how many hours a year have been flown in last 10-20.  NOT MANY is my guess...

[Alan Fox]

13 hours ago, Smiles201 said:

I would try to figure out why he did not go ahead and do a bottom overhaul at that time; anything else he has skimped on?

Sending an engine tp Poplar Grove , and having it IRAN ed , is not skimping.......Ignorant post.....

 

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

So new plane in '66.  In first six years  1400 hours.  Yowza.  Overhaul.  Four more years and cylinders.  Then 40 years until crank. I would want to know how many hours a year have been flown in last 10-20.  NOT MANY is my guess...

Engine was completely torn down 4.5 yrs ago and IRAN'd by Poplar Grove. It was reassembled with a new cam and lifters. Do the years preceding that really matter? Clearly nothing corroded or worn was included in the reassembly. 

Perhaps I'm biased because I IRAN'd at 900hrs and 9yrs do to a cracked case. We could have replaced a bunch of stuff that would have looked great on paper but made no sense looking at the actual components. We replaced lifters and replaced one exhaust valve the looked as though it "may" have over-heated. The engine like would have gone to TBO had we replace nothing, I feel comfortable running it past given the mid time IRAN and the information it yielded. What happened prior to IRAN is not really relevant to my future plans.

[MyNameIsNobody]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

Engine was completely torn down 4.5 yrs ago and IRAN'd by Poplar Grove. It was reassembled with a new cam and lifters. Do the years preceding that really matter? Clearly nothing corroded or worn was included in the reassembly. 

Perhaps I'm biased because I IRAN'd at 900hrs and 9yrs do to a cracked case. We could have replaced a bunch of stuff that would have looked great on paper but made no sense looking at the actual components. We replaced lifters and replaced one exhaust valve the looked as though it "may" have over-heated. The engine like would have gone to TBO had we replace nothing, I feel comfortable running it past given the mid time IRAN and the information it yielded. What happened prior to IRAN is not really relevant to my future plans.

How it has flown or not flown in five years will matter.  Jugs age and condition will matter.  My plane sat for ten to fifteen and had assessories:Oil Cooler, Hoses, Mags, Exhaust that saw zero attention with the Iran.  You are I will say correct on the "what does the history matter" since 2012.  Would be a much better gamble than I took.  I did NOT pay run out price either.  Buyer is proceeding with eyes open vs. my ignorant costly non-blissful experience.

[thinwing]

17 hours ago, Paul S. said:

Hi All,

Found 65 E for sale in WI, everything seem to be ok but what caught my eyes was an engine.

It has TTAF – 2915

Last Annual – 1/2/2017

Lycoming IO-360-A1A 200hp
1555 SMOH
1415 STOH
Overhauled – 12/15/1972
Top Overhaul – 2/2/1976
Crank case reconditioned, new camshaft, new lifters by Poplar Grove Airmotive – 11/28/2012
Fuel Injection System Overhauled by G&N – 1/16/2006
Tanis Engine Heater with Cylinder Wraps
Latest Compressions – 78, 78, 77, 76 /80

Was wondering what might be reason for crank case reconditioned as well as new camshaft and lifters? Owner said aircraft has no known DH.

Should this be something that need to be concern with?

Any comment or suggestion are greatly appreciated.

Thanks all

 

 

Rust from not being flown enough,they had to split the cases to change out rusted camshaft and lifters.Too bad they just didn't overhaul at that time but you can treat this as a 3/4 runout engine that has had a recent look thru

[Smiles201]

4 hours ago, Alan Fox said:

Sending an engine tp Poplar Grove , and having it IRAN ed , is not skimping.......Ignorant post.....

 

Probably true....But if it were me I would want more done after 40 years. Case is already apart, why not put in new bearings and seals, call it bottom overhaul, and increase resale value and appeal?  Bottom would be good for another 2000+ hours? 

[Shadrach]

14 minutes ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

How it has flown or not flown in five years will matter.  Jugs age and condition will matter.  My plane sat for ten to fifteen and had assessories:Oil Cooler, Hoses, Mags, Exhaust that saw zero attention with the Iran.  You are I will say correct on the "what does the history matter" since 2012.  Would be a much better gamble than I took.  I did NOT pay run out price either.  Buyer is proceeding with eyes open vs. my ignorant costly non-blissful experience.

Don't feel bad about it. Most of us have a story like yourself.  Back in 2012 after deciding not to keep my old Triumph tagged for street use (it still serves as my airport scooter), I wanted a roadster as a fun car.  After a bit of performance and market researce I decided that a Porsche Boxster (986) S or a BMW Z4 would strike the right balance of performance and value.  I was at the dealer auction and both models came through two different lanes at the same time.  I choose to bid on the Artic Silver Porsche.  The first few years of ownership were just short of heartbreaking...  Don't get me wrong, I still think it's one of the finest driver's cars on the road even at 15 years old, but I had no idea what I was getting into maintenance wise. If I had it to do again knowing what I know now, I'd still end up with the same make/model, but I'd have bought it differently. I'd try to be in the position of the person that buys my car (which is going up for sale soon) as it is now (well loved, maintained and upgraded) and not the position that I was in (ignorent) when I bought it (neglected, but not obviously).  I now know how to tell the difference.  The dumbest thing I did was wait until I had a problem before joining the 986 forum...I should have done it long before deciding to purchase.

 

[Shadrach]

7 hours ago, thinwing said:

Rust from not being flown enough,they had to split the cases to change out rusted camshaft and lifters.Too bad they just didn't overhaul at that time but you can treat this as a 3/4 runout engine that has had a recent look thru

I'll say it a little differently than I did previously.  An overhaul makes people "feel" good. It also "looks" good in the log books and on paper.  However, if your actually standing over a pile of parts that have a great deal of life left in them or in some cases are nearly indistinguisable from new, you begin to see the practicality and utility of an IRAN.  

Also, While we can agree there was a reason the cam and lifters were replaced, we don't know the reason or the degree Nor do we know why the engine was opened. When I had my engine IRAN'd all the components I replaced would have likely run another 10 years and the 1100hrs to TBO.  I replaced the lifters because of pitting on a few that was so slight that it would have to be heavily magnified in a pic to even be visable.  I made prudent "while we're in here" decisions based on my goal of getting another 15yrs and 1500hours out of it. It would be easy for someone to second guess (wrongly) what happened based on a cursery view my logs.  The fact that this engine was IRAN'd by a shop like PG tells me the previous owner was likely savvy at more than just writing checks (or was being advised by such a person).

Nothing is without risk, but this sort of represents the best of both worlds in terms of potential value. We have a plane with an engine that just 5 years ago was opened, inspected, repaired and reassembled by a very reputable shop, yet can legitimately be priced as run out. That's the kind of hedge I like.

Some owners measure their aircraft by the amount of money poored (sp pun intended) into it.

The aircraft we're discussing here is more for person that is looking for the best dispatch reliabilty per dollar spent.  

The crankshaft only cares that the bearings are within specs and getting good oil flow. The crankshaft does not give a shit about how old the bearings are or when they were replaced, that is the purview of human pride.

It's funny that auto engines which constantly stop and start under varying loads, cylinder pressures and mixtures, usually hit the 2000hr mark between 60K and 65K.  That's half way through the 6th oil change of a new imports.  Most would consider any reputable auto with 65K on the odometer just broken in mechanically. However, it's somehow a shame that perfectly functioning aircraft crankshaft and bearings that have been bathed in oil the whole of their 1200hr life weren't overhauled so that someone could call it "overhauled" in the logs.  The physical reality of how these parts will interact is not changed by the word overhaul, just the human perception of it. 

[thinwing]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

Don't feel bad about it. Most of us have a story like yourself.  Back in 2012 after deciding not to keep my old Triumph tagged for street use (it still serves as my airport scooter), I wanted a roadster as a fun car.  After a bit of performance and market researce I decided that a Porsche Boxster (986) S or a BMW Z4 would strike the right balance of performance and value.  I was at the dealer auction and both models came through two different lanes at the same time.  I choose to bid on the Artic Silver Porsche.  The first few years of ownership were just short of heartbreaking...  Don't get me wrong, I still think it's one of the finest driver's cars on the road even at 15 years old, but I had no idea what I was getting into maintenance wise. If I had it to do again knowing what I know now, I'd still end up with the same make/model, but I'd have bought it differently. I'd try to be in the position of the person that buys my car (which is going up for sale soon) as it is now (well loved, maintained and upgraded) and not the position that I was in (ignorent) when I bought it (neglected, but not obviously).  I now know how to tell the difference.  The dumbest thing I did was wait until I had a problem before joining the 986 forum...I should have done it long before deciding to purchase.

 

I have a boxster that I bought new in 2001...current mileage is 10986.... as far as Iran/ overhaul by a shop as well known as PG..I wonder what the expense delta would have been ?If the owner paid 7 k for that Iran but a field overhaul cost 12 k ..I would have given more thought to future resell value

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Smiles201 said:

Probably true....But if it were me I would want more done after 40 years. Case is already apart, why not put in new bearings and seals, call it bottom overhaul, and increase resale value and appeal?  Bottom would be good for another 2000+ hours? 

ummm....because the bearings werent worn???  What seals are you referring to?  I am 98% sure PG would automatically replace things like push rod seals.