Mooney Stigmas

[jetdriven]

3 hours ago, Alan Fox said:

There are so many parts mules , that with the exception of the Ruddervators  , there are used parts galore , Same with the Mooneys , Problem with the Mooneys is corrosion is really becoming prevalent in the older airframes......

 A big problem I see in the shop with older bonanzas is the availability of certain parts such as Beechcraft electric props, hartzell converted hydraulic props and components, and E225 engine parts in general. We had a navion that the E225 engine had to be torn down inspected and the crank was bad, the cam followers are all bad, the crank bearings, and the Lear Romec fuel pump needed overhauled. Crank 5k. Followers 250$!! each and that's reground, bearings 80$ a set (per bearing)  NOS not pristine, and the fuel pump was 1500$ to overhaul.  And we spent many hours scouring for these parts. The PS5C pressure carb diaphragms and gaskets are around 3k.   He dumped about 30k into the power plant and its only worth maybe 45-50k after is done. 

[Bob_Belville]

6 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

 A big problem I see in the shop with older bonanzas is the availability of certain parts such as Beechcraft electric props, hartzell converted hydraulic props and components, and E225 engine parts in general. We had a navion that the E225 engine had to be torn down inspected and the crank was bad, the cam followers are all bad, the crank bearings, and the Lear Romec fuel pump needed overhauled. Crank 5k. Followers 250$!! each and that's reground, bearings 80$ a set (per bearing)  NOS not pristine, and the fuel pump was 1500$ to overhaul.  And we spent many hours scouring for these parts. The PS5C pressure carb diaphragms and gaskets are around 3k.   He dumped about 30k into the power plant and its only worth maybe 45-50k after is done. 

Lynn had a Navion (I don't know which model/engine) in the back corner of his shop for many months waiting for a couple of cylinders.

[bonal]

4 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Some interesting numbers from the Ovation, Acclaim and 252 ads on Controller I've averaged the filing speeds for those I could find.

Ovation: 166KTAS, Mooney says max. 197, long range 170

Acclaim: 198 KTAS, Mooney says max 242, long range 175

252: 170 KTS

From Mooneypilots.com

C model: max 146

E model: max 149

F model: max 148

I'd say "don't drink the Kool Aid"

Clarence

For my C on a three and four heading gps track at 8000ft produced 149 knots and at 145 true I'm only using 8.5 gph. And in deference to Mr. Fox I doubt an early Bo can equal that. But what the hell I love them early V tails.

[bonal]

The first airplane ride as a kid was in a V tail and was my favorite airplane I didn't like them Mooneys but then I was just a stupid kid.

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, KLRDMD said:

Why do you say that ? I got 185 KTAS on 24 GPH in my Baron and many others I know get the same numbers.

I say it because my hangar neighbor's B55 trues at 190kts at just under 14gph per side. Which only proves that what you see is what see. What you read can be another thing entirely. I don't doubt what you say, but I've never flown in a Barron doing 185 @24gph so I have to go with what I've seen. A quick search of the web shows that my experience is not an outlier. 

[KLRDMD]

19 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I say it because my hangar neighbor's B55 trues at 190kts at just under 14gph per side. Which only proves that what you see is what see. What you read can be another thing entirely. I don't doubt what you say, but I've never flown in a Barron doing 185 @24gph so I have to go with what I've seen. A quick search of the web shows that my experience is not an outlier. 

At 28 GPH, he's flying ROP.  He's a dinosaur. LOP, 24 GPH at 185KTAS at 8,000 ft is the norm. Lower fuel flow yet is possible in a Baron with resultant slower true airspeed.

http://www.csobeech.com/engine.html

https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=134872

[Shadrach]

20 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

At 28 GPH, he's flying ROP.  He's a dinosaur. LOP, 24 GPH at 185KTAS at 8,000 ft is the norm. Lower fuel flow yet is possible in a Baron with resultant slower true airspeed.

http://www.csobeech.com/engine.html

https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=134872

As I said, I don't doubt you. I don't fly a baron, but if I did, I'd be doing whatever I could to run as efficiently as possible. I'm plenty familiar with leaning aircraft engines. I'll let him know he's flying like it's 1985. Hell, I'll even show him how to do a lean test, but my guess is he's not interested. If he hasn't sought the data or changed his SOP in all this time, I'm probably not going to push him over the edge. I know that he runs stock injectors, so it's quite possible that ROP is his only option.

[Alan Fox]

9 hours ago, jetdriven said:

 A big problem I see in the shop with older bonanzas is the availability of certain parts such as Beechcraft electric props, hartzell converted hydraulic props and components, and E225 engine parts in general. We had a navion that the E225 engine had to be torn down inspected and the crank was bad, the cam followers are all bad, the crank bearings, and the Lear Romec fuel pump needed overhauled. Crank 5k. Followers 250$!! each and that's reground, bearings 80$ a set (per bearing)  NOS not pristine, and the fuel pump was 1500$ to overhaul.  And we spent many hours scouring for these parts. The PS5C pressure carb diaphragms and gaskets are around 3k.   He dumped about 30k into the power plant and its only worth maybe 45-50k after is done. 

Agreed Byron , But everything got modern in the 59 K model ,   and you can get 59 to 65 Bos in annual for less than 50 K , 

[AlexLev]

Just saw this on another forum. Haha. Fess up, which one of you is responsible for this myth and taking 2-hours to remove your cowling??

Quote

The main reason a Mooney is a bit more expensive is because they are so tightly engineered. You will get charged a minimum of 2 shop hours just to have the cowling removed (and almost everything you do to a Mooney requires the cowling to be removed). If you get a normally aspirated C-210 (which would not have the problems of the exhaust stack cracking, like the turbo-charged models have) then the maintenance is very similar in cost to that of a newer Mooney. I'm going off of information from about 20 years ago though, so i admit I could be wrong about this. I haven't owned a SEL airplane since about 1994. Only multis since then.

Edited March 6, 2017 by AlexLev

[Shadrach]

On March 6, 2017 at 9:35 AM, AlexLev said:

Just saw this on another forum. Haha. Fess up, which one of you is responsible for this myth and taking 2-hours to remove your cowling??

 I can't speak to the J model, but completely decowling an F model top and bottom could easily take two shop hours for someone that doesn't do it all the time. The top and sides can be done in about 5 to 10 minutes. The lower cowling  takes considerably more time.  One would need to remove the oil cooler from the cowling, the intake duct, the ram air cable, oil feed for the prop governor must be removed from the engine is threaded through the front cowl cover which is connected to the internal baffle seals. Various drains need to be removed as well as the cowl flaps disconnected.

 It is indeed true that completely decowling a Mooney engine from the firewall forward is not a quick task. Maybe not two hours for experienced mechanic, but it takes time.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Shadrach

[jetdriven]

The older models with the many screws take longer, but with a good power screw gun, someone who knows what he is doing can get it on and off in about an hour plus a few mins for the inevitable few sheet metal screws that wont take up in the holes.  I vastly prefer the J cowl. Its easy.

CNOE and I had a race, to close up his plane. Each of us had a power screw gun, and hand torqued all the screws. We started at each wingtip, and closed out the wings in one hour each.

[AndyFromCB]

On 3/4/2017 at 0:26 PM, HRM said:

I drive a Mercedes AMG

I'm sorry

[AlexLev]

10 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

The older models with the many screws take longer, but with a good power screw gun, someone who knows what he is doing can get it on and off in about an hour plus a few mins for the inevitable few sheet metal screws that wont take up in the holes.  I vastly prefer the J cowl. Its easy.

CNOE and I had a race, to close up his plane. Each of us had a power screw gun, and hand torqued all the screws. We started at each wingtip, and closed out the wings in one hour each.

Takes about 5 minutes to take off my G model's cowling and maybe 5-15 to put it back on?

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, AlexLev said:

Takes about 5 minutes to take off my G model's cowling and maybe 5-15 to put it back on?

Where is the oil cooler on your G? How do you remove the two strut braces? At the firewall side or do you remove the 4 little screws per side on the lower cowl? how many bolts holding the intake to airbox?

[Bob_Belville]

2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

 I can't speak to the Jay model, but completely decowling an F model top and bottom could easily take two shop hours for someone that doesn't do it all the time. The top and sides can be done in about 5 to 10 minutes. The lower cowling  takes considerably more time.  One would need to remove the oil cooler from the cowling, the intake duct, the ram air cable, oil feed for the prop governor must be removed from the engine is threaded through the front cowl cover which is connected to the internal baffle seals. Various drains need to be removed as well as the cowl flaps disconnected.

 It is indeed true that completely decowling a Mooney engine from the firewall forward is not a quick task. Maybe not two hours for experienced mechanic, but it takes time.

But in my experience the bottom cowl of my 66E seldom has to come off, not even for the annual. The sides are just 1/4 turn fasteners and both sides can be removed or installed in under 5 minutes. The top has 1/4" turn fasteners across the top rear and 10 screws, another 5 minutes, tops. Easily done w/o a helper.

[Hank]

8 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

But in my experience the bottom cowl of my 66E seldom has to come off. The sides are just 1/4 turn fasteners and both sides can be removed or installed in under 5 minutes. The top has 1/4" turn fasteners across the top rear and 10 screws, another 5 minutes, tops. Easily done w/o a helper.

My 1970 C is even easier, it's all 1/4 turn fasteners, with one screw on each side at the back, and one sheet metal screw on each side by the spinner. Five minutes each way, easy, including alignment of the top going on  (which takes a little practice to get right the first time).

[Bob_Belville]

Just now, Hank said:

My 1970 C is even easier, it's all 1/4 turn fasteners, with one screw on each side at the back, and one sheet metal screw on each side by the spinner. Five minutes each way, easy, including alignment of the top going on  (which takes a little practice to get right the first time).

I pulled the cowl on a J a couple of weeks ago. It takes longer with disconnection the cowl flaps, etc.

[Shadrach]

1 minute ago, Bob_Belville said:

But in my experience the bottom cowl of my 66E seldom has to come off. The sides are just 1/4 turn fasteners and both sides can be removed or installed in under 5 minutes. The top has 1/4" turn fasteners across the top rear and 10 screws, another 5 minutes, tops. Easily done w/o a helper.

I agree with you, nevertheless decowling the engine completely is not the same as removing the top cowl and the side panels. It is fortunate that things like Alt/Gen, starters, mufflers, fuel servos are low maintenance items.

[Shadrach]

2 minutes ago, Hank said:

My 1970 C is even easier, it's all 1/4 turn fasteners, with one screw on each side at the back, and one sheet metal screw on each side by the spinner. Five minutes each way, easy, including alignment of the top going on  (which takes a little practice to get right the first time).

I think the vintage upper cowls are the same from 66 forward. Yes it's easy to remove the upper cowl and sides, but that does not give you complete access to the engine.

[Hank]

Just now, Shadrach said:

I think the vintage upper cowls are the same from 66 forward. Yes it's easy to remove the upper cowl and sides, but that does not give you complete access to the engine.

I've only owned my Money for ten years, but I only had to drop (not remove) the lower cowl once, when  replacing the landing light bother first time (wires were rather short).

[aviatoreb]

8 minutes ago, Hank said:

I've only owned my Money for ten years, but I only had to drop (not remove) the lower cowl once, when  replacing the landing light bother first time (wires were rather short).

Really?  My lower cowl needs to come off just to change oil.

[Hank]

5 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Really?  My lower cowl needs to come off just to change oil.

The oil drain is behind do the left cheek, I thread the tubing out the cowling flap. Top must come off to reach the filter, and I put a drain channel in front  the right side to catch what drips out of the filter as I unscrew it. I've got a power point of the whole process somewhere . . . Going through my memory sticks now, consolidating a handful onto a new 128GB unit I just picked up.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Hank

[Bob_Belville]

2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I agree with you, nevertheless decowling the engine completely is not the same as removing the top cowl and the side panels. It is fortunate that things like Alt/Gen, starters, mufflers, fuel servos are low maintenance items.

Alternator, starter, muffler and fuel servo can all be removed/replaced without removing the lower cowl on my E model. 

[Bob_Belville]

2 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Really?  My lower cowl needs to come off just to change oil.

Yeah the lower cowl on the J (and K?) are easier to r&r than on the older models but the older models do no need to have the lower cowl removed for much of anything and the other 3 pieces come off very easily.

[ArtVandelay]

I pulled the cowl on a J a couple of weeks ago. It takes longer with disconnection the cowl flaps, etc.

The Js cowl flaps have quick disconnects, should take a few seconds to disconnect them, the hard part is the lower cowl is bulky and hard to manage if 1 person. I use a box to provide some support.

Edit: I don't have landing light to disconnect either, takes maybe 5 minutes, putting back on takes longer, you have to play with it to get it aligned.