New Member, Very Close to Buying C Model

[MBDiagMan]

Was posting on pilotsofamerica and a MS member suggested that I introduce myself here.

I currently own and fly a Cessna 140, but ready for a plane capable of making it two states away in the same day.:)  I am on the verge of making an offer on a very nice C model.  I have been smitten with the manual gear Mooneys since I took flying lessons the first time in 1991.

the plane I have my eye on has a 250 hour factory reman engine and a new prop at the same time.  Has a very nice King panel with a 430.  Wet looking paint and nice interior.  Has a 201 cowl, windshield and lots of speed mods.  Has been maintained by Dugosh for the last 30 years.  I understand that Dugosh sold the business.  My current mechanic who is a Mooney guy told me that he would be happy to take my money for a prebuy inspection, but if Dugosh has been maintaining it, that I need not worry about it.  He is, however, going to call Dugosh this afternoon and talk to them about the aircraft.

If my story is straight about Dugosh selling the business do they still have the same dependability without him?  Any comments about this being a good plan?

if I don't buy this particular aircraft I will almost certainly buy a C or maybe an F model somewhere, so I look forward to getting acquainted on MS.

Doc

PS: Forgot to mention that I am checking into when the tanks were sealed/bladders/replaced.LB

Edited January 25, 2017 by MBDiagMan

[Skates97]

Welcome aboard! Guys will be chiming in shortly with ideas/advice.

[rbridges]

Just my 2 cents, but I'd probably still take it to maxwell for a prebuy.  Our planes have been around for a while, and there's lots of stuff that could have happened over the last 40-50+ years.  If you buy it, we'll have to show you the secret handshake known only by us C model pilots.

[Candy man]

I'm in the market as well and have been lurking around the board for a few months. 1 of the many things I've learned since hanging around is the prebuy is a must, and it seems as if these guys trust about 5 people around the country to do them. I'd read the following thread start to finish before I decided not to do a pre buy. Good luck and share pics.

 

Lawrence

 

https://mooneyspace.com/topic/21070-i-need-fuel-bladders-help/?page=4

 

[Joe Zuffoletto]

Welcome to MS, Doc! Remember me from POA? Good luck as you investigate your C!

[MBDiagMan]

Is dugosh one of the shops for a good prebuy?

[gitmo234]

Do either of you notice a difference in personalities here from POA? Maybe it's just me or I haven't been around this forum long enough but I rarely visit POA. Reminds too much of the FBO that I eventually left. Too many grumpy old pilots and staff that no matter how long I was there or how much I spent or tried to talk to them I was the outsider.

[3914N]

Welcome! I bought my mooney 1.5 years ago and everyone here has been very helpful. You have come to the right place. 

A 'C with a 201 cowl is AWESOME. You will see lots of people here with the factory cowl complaining about high CHTs (myself included). The 201 retrofit greatly reduces this problem. 

During the prebuy is time to check for the not-so-obvious things that can cause major headache down the road. There are good posts here on the unique items to check. 

Most of all, check to see how much the airplane has flown in the last few years. Lots of stories here about camshaft pitting and overhauling engines with 500 hours. 

 

Edited January 25, 2017 by 3914N

[MBDiagMan]

Thanks for the comments.  Anyone know about Digosh in Kerrville as a good prebuy resource?

[mooniac15u]

Others can comment on Dugosh specifically but it's generally a good idea to get a PPI from someone who hasn't been maintaining the plane.

[VLFarms]

If this is Larry take it to maxwell you won't regret it, wish I would have. 

[Hank]

2 hours ago, MBDiagMan said:

Thanks for the comments.  Anyone know about Digosh in Kerrville as a good prebuy resource?

Dugosh had a solid reputation for forever. Don't know anything about the new people.

Regardless of who has been working in it, a PPI from someone uninvolved is always a good idea. Sometimes a different set if eyes will see things that the regular guy doesn't see anymore. Yes, I'd recommend this even if DMax had been doing the maintenance since it left the factory.

Good luck with your purchase! I love my C, with 201 windshield (I have the small outside access panels), guppy mouth closure, one piece belly and 3-blade speed brake on the nose. Even with that heavy Hartzell, I still get 147-149 KTAS on 9 gph. That's really, really hard to beat!  

Welcome to the Good Board! Sorry I didn't think to recommend it last night . . .

[MBDiagMan]

Yep, this is Larry, but I will be darn if I can figure out who VLFarms could be.

[MBDiagMan]

I have a mechanic that did the prebuy on my 140 years ago.  I know him well and trust him to the Nth.  He does lots of Mooney work.  I think I will send it to him for the prebuy.  When I called him about this plane on Monday and told him that Dugosh had maintained it for thirty years, he said he would call them about it and indicated that there would probably be no need for him to take it apart himself.  He called this afternoon and said that Dugosh had sold the outfit.  Since he didn't know any of the guys there, he did not feel comfortable without inspecting it himself.  I live in NETexas, so Maxwell is not far away, but I think I will take it to my guy for the prebuy.

I had been waiting on the insurance quote and that is in.  The insurance was considerably less expensive than I expected since I have no retractible time.  Time to begin negotiating tomorrow.  Is it common for a seller to throw in the ferry costs?  I am less than two Mooney hours away from the planes current hangar.

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard MBD...

you have hit my favorite topic...  buying machinery...

1) Please understand that the PPI is the best protection for your wallet.

2) Taking it to an MSC with a great background is the lowest risk available.

3) Taking it to the same place that did its annual, sounds right, but is really not the best use of your PPI money.  The PPI is best done by an independent set of eyes.

4) The good news is, a plane that has been maintained by a good shop is probably in good shape.

5) Unfortunately things can and do change over a years time.  That is the reason to have annuals.

 

 

Briefly, the PPI from an independent shop is for your wallet's protection.  

 

My other favorite topic...  have you signed up for any transition Training?  This is another really good idea to spend a few bucks on a Mooney specific CFI.  Mostly protection of your wallet again.

 

PP pilot ideas only, I bought my C with a minimal PPI, my TT was done buy a CFI that had no specific Mooney knowledge. Some times it is better to be lucky...?

Good luck with the acquisition.

Best regards,

-a-

 

Edited January 26, 2017 by carusoam

[bonal]

Welcome to Mooney central. I will spare you my story get a PPI regardless of who been doing the maintenance and by someone that knows Mooneys preferably not the one your looking at. A different set of eyes is best. We love our little C but it's been a challenging journey.

[gsxrpilot]

Hi MBD,

If I were you, I'd take the plane to Don Maxwell for the Pre-buy and then use your local guy for the annuals after that.  That way you know you're starting out with a solid Mooney without any issues. Don is also good when it comes to negotiating price over the issues that inevitably pop up on a pre-buy. He has so much credibility in the Mooney community, that no one can even begin to argue his findings. He saved me a lot of money on my first Mooney, a super fast M20C.  And once you know you're starting with a good plane, it will be easy to maintain it going forward.

Not to throw your local guy under the bus, but this forum is FULL of horror stories of people who got the local, highly respected, lots of Mooney experience, nicest A&P/AI you'll ever meet, to do the pre-buy and yet much was missed resulting in expenses exceeding the value of the airplane.

All of us on this board hope you get a great bird and become a longtime active member of our little community. And we really don't want you to go through the expense and heartache that so many others have gone through.

Welcome 

[VLFarms]

2 hours ago, MBDiagMan said:

Yep, this is Larry, but I will be darn if I can figure out who VLFarms could be.

Alex, had the 150 next to you in bonham. Sid told me today you were looking at a mooney. He knows Mooney's very well but I'd still carry it to Maxwell and then let sid complete the anualls in the following years.  Just my 2 cents.  Don will probably be extremely thorough and he will have good negotiating power behind what he says with his reputation. 

Edited January 26, 2017 by VLFarms

[Skates97]

3 hours ago, MBDiagMan said:

I had been waiting on the insurance quote and that is in.  The insurance was considerably less expensive than I expected since I have no retractible time.  Time to begin negotiating tomorrow.  Is it common for a seller to throw in the ferry costs?  I am less than two Mooney hours away from the planes current hangar.

I'm a brand new, wet behind the ears pilot that had under 60 hours when I got my Mooney last month. The insurance wasn't bad after negotiating with three different brokers, four if you count the one that didn't give me a quote because she couldn't match the others but did give me some advice that helped in my negotiations.

The seller did not pay the ferry costs for me, but did bring it to me in So Cal from AZ, about a two hour flight. I paid for his airline ticket back, a shuttle from the airport to his home and a little extra for his time. It was still less than it would have been to take my CFI out with me to pick it up or hire someone else to ferry it.

[rbridges]

4 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

Oh we ALL know that one, you dont actually use your hands, you shake feet.  I did wonder what you were all doing at the summit last year doing that but then someone explained it to me.   

Dude, learn to keep a secret. 

[flyhigh603]

If your serious about buying a Mooney learn from my mistakes. I just bought a 66 M20C 8 months ago that i thought was in great shape. actually the airframe and exterior is in excellent shape but what was lurking under the panels was a different story. I found my dream plane 1500 miles away. Low hrs but high time motor, no big deal if maintained prop. I had a pre buy at a shop that advertised we work on Moonies and had the Mooney logo on the website. Long story short  i thought i did all the right things and bought her.I put my plane in early annual to store for winter but mid way thru annual my plane is grounded. Apparently the sealant in my tanks have failed in catastrophic fashion. My carb ( 8 months old ) was so full of failed sealant that it has to be overhauled. The pre buy shop  never looked in the tanks.Now my plane is grounded in mid annual till i get bladder tanks installed. My mech won't do a strip and seal job cause he's not set up for it at all. On top of that the log books were a disaster , many ad`s signed off but never done.I asked specifically how the logs looked.Was told they look good i was told. Parts put on at past annuals were put on backwards causing damage. So in a nut shell be hyper vigilant and go thru the  process in person, ask lots of questions along the way.

                                                              A very wise Mooney owner has told me recently that with a Mooney its very wise that instead of a "Pre buy inspection " have a full blown annual done with the agreement that anything major comes up you discuss with current owner before you move foreword. Its will be a little more than pre buy but the safety you'll have of you and your wallet is priceless. Like if things come up like ad`s signed off but were not done the current owner pay for it, especially if he says " oh yeah all the ad`s have been done". Any major finds should be discussed and agreed on before purchase. But you pay for the annual of course , just not for major issues that come up. Thats your leverage . If the owner has a problem with you paying for an annual and agreement about issues coming up then run very far away.If a Mooney is maintained properly then annual should be a breeze.Yes its a machine and things break but well maintained machines can last forever. Every letter in the alphabet you move up in a Mooney gets more expensive all the way around. I love my 66 M20C !!! best flying plane I've ever been in.I could never go back to anything else. Good luck .....

[mooniac15u]

4 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

If you have tank issues get Paul Beck of weep no more look at them, and noone else. (Except Don of course).  

Weep No More is certainly a great shop but there are a couple of other outstanding shops such as Wet Wingologists in Ft. Lauderdale. 

http://www.wetwingologistseast.com

[gsxrpilot]

The OP can't be more than 20 Mooney minutes from Don Maxwell at KGGG. Most on the board only wish they were that close to the Oracle of all things Mooney.

[JKSmith]

Hello and welcome aboard!

I may not know to much but this is my two cents. 

I purchased my F last may, it was still current but I had a reputable A&P that I greatly trusted (and liked Mooney aircraft) perform my pre buy. I'm not to sure what he looked at during the pre buy but he said it was a solid plane. 

My annual was performed in october and it stayed a month, 4K later I got it back and he told me that I may need a new engine next annual "if" there's another large amount of metal flakes in the oil sample. 

My lesson learned, take it to someone that is on your side. Take it to a certified Mooney shop, spend the extra up front, and if you have the luxury of taking it to don maxwell I'd go ahead and schedule the appointment. Pre buys make a good bartering tool. Unfortunately in my case I was having to barter with my father in law. 

Just some background on my Mooney if anyone is concerned about the engine. It sat for 5 years and I'm almost positive that the large amount of metal shavings was due to the fact that it sat so long, I have since changed oil and the metal shavings are minimal. 

 

 

[3914N]

2 hours ago, JKSmith said:

Just some background on my Mooney if anyone is concerned about the engine. It sat for 5 years and I'm almost positive that the large amount of metal shavings was due to the fact that it sat so long, I have since changed oil and the metal shavings are minimal. 

Not to hijack this thread, but is this common? Engines that sit for a while make some metal and then settle down?

I was under the impression that once the engine starts making metal,  it usually doesn't stop. 

Edited January 26, 2017 by 3914N