mike28w Posted January 25, 2017 Report Posted January 25, 2017 I'm getting the impression that the OP simply doesn't want to speak to any other mechanics or specialists...... am I jumping to conclusions ? mike 2 Quote
jetdriven Posted January 25, 2017 Report Posted January 25, 2017 I think the plane is still in annual, if so, pull the fuel drains out, flush it out really well and do it again another time for sure very well. Then take it somewhere else. This board is full of owners were told something must be done now and it's for 20 or 30 grand on it find out later that it was unnecessary. 2 Quote
AGL Aviation Posted January 25, 2017 Report Posted January 25, 2017 If you're looking for fuel bladders or need fuel bladders overhauled give Eagle Fuel Cells a try. They're very reasonable, very informative, and have a decent turn around time. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro 1 Quote
gsxrpilot Posted January 27, 2017 Report Posted January 27, 2017 Hi, So as I mentioned, by M20K 252 is in the shop for a tank reseal. It's in with Houston Tank Specialists. I stopped by to check on the progress and we talked about your bird. A couple of things were interesting. First of all, Carl, the owner showed me the various screens that sealant would have to get through to get to your carburetor. He is a true specialist at Mooney tank issues and was quite skeptical that it was sealant that could get all the way down stream past all the filters, to clog your carb jets/intakes. Secondly he showed me how his equipment for stripping and resealing tanks he built to be completely portable. He would be willing to come to New Hampshire and do the work at your location to strip and completely reseal your tanks. Of course he is from Texas, so he'd have to wait until the snow melts and it warms up in your town. But by then it will be too hot to work in an un-airconditioned hanger in Houston anyway. So perfect timing. It would be worth your time to at least have a phone conversation with Carl at Houston Tank Specialists, (google it). He is certainly willing and able to travel to your location and get your tanks back to an airworthy condition that will last another 20 to 30 years. 8 Quote
flyhigh603 Posted January 27, 2017 Author Report Posted January 27, 2017 i bought the plane after what I thought was a thorough pre buy inspection. $12,000 was put into her last 2 annuals and brand new carb at last annual. An annual was completed 3 weeks before I bought her. So after I got thumbs up from pre buy and I did a very detailed personal inspection , and a crazy shakedown flight I thought she was gonna be ok for at least a couple yrs.She started right up , flew hands off , sounded fantastic , and no oil or fuel leaks when I checked her out. The way this all come about was because I decided to do my annual early to have it done so that every winter I want to store her for 4 months of winter. Annual is actually due in May but my long range plans was to sync up my annual to when I put her away for winter, Dec/Jan. Get annual done , put her up for 4 months then when weather and daylight get better I pull her out and go flying. But this tank disaster was completely unexpected. First sign was she was a real bitch to start last few flights and it wasn't really cold yet. My Mech said the primer jet in the brand new carb was clogged solid. I could tell by his reaction he was as surprised as I was. He showed me the failed sealant in the screens and it was horrifying !! Last two flights I took were 2 hrs in remote wilderness an hr flight from any civilization . They never would have found me. So the reality is hitting pretty hard. Quote
flyhigh603 Posted January 27, 2017 Author Report Posted January 27, 2017 Gsxr Thanks a lot for the info !!!! I'll be calling him next week for sure. Thanks again . And thanks to all who have given their 2 cents . 1 Quote
carusoam Posted January 27, 2017 Report Posted January 27, 2017 (edited) FH, You have defined pretty well what it is like to be human. 1) there is no substitute for an independent PPI by a qualified mechanic with Mooney specific knowledge. 2) There is no perfect PPI. The range of PPIs goes from doing nothing and going for a test flight, to a full annual at the most respected MSC in TX. Compare the 2 amu cost of an annual to the costs you are being surprised with... 3) three areas of expense that are hard to find unless looking for them by somebody that knows. Rusty cam, oxidized spar and fuel tank sealant. Really, fuel tank sealant is more a log book review by a PP with a small amount of Mooney experience. Do you think a pilot can feel these issues while flying it? Can a long time Mooney pilot feel these things while flying? 4) These expensive issues are not Mooney specific. They exist throughout the GA world. 5) You have learned from your experience in a tough expensive way. The follow-up question is how you are going to handle things moving forwards? 6) It is important to review your mistakes, only to not repeat them again. Don't dwell on this stuff. As the owner, you are responsible for your decisions. The basis of being PIC... 7) You can't feel bad about mistakes you made yesterday. Do your best to not make similar mistakes going forwards. 8) When it comes to expensive tank resealing, you haven't mentioned how much of discount you got while negotiating or the price you paid for the plane. Or what the price of similar planes to yours have sold for. How much you spent or saved on the PPI. All water under the bridge, now... 9) Everyone uses their planes for different reasons. Some derive value out of them every day, or once per week, a few go with once per month... 10) Putting a plane away for several months at a time is an odd expense not usually part of Mooney ownership. Hangar expense, engine lay-up, dehumidification, and the reversal of these processes... planes and mechanical things don't like to sit very well. 11) Imagine buying a new carburetor, then finding out the carb isn't the problem... somebody selling this plane probably knew something about its condition. Carbs usually get OH'd not replaced. Search the topic around here to see how many new carbs are being purchased. 12) Mooneys fly really well in the winter, even in places north of Maine... M20Cs are a blast in the winter. Dense cool air gives some pretty nice performance that isn't available during the summer months. 13) Based on the issues that you have covered, it sounds like this plane has been under used for a while. Expect to find more things that are pretty well documented around here. On the same note as the PPI... Have you taken the opportunity to get Transition Training from a qualified Mooney Specifc CFI? My M20C ate an exhaust valve during my TT required by my insurance... Imagine what else you want to be aware of before finding out on your own... This is intended to bring some awareness of Mooney ownership topics that some people have/use around here. Best regards, -a- Edited January 27, 2017 by carusoam 1 Quote
flyhigh603 Posted January 27, 2017 Author Report Posted January 27, 2017 Carusoam i enjoy your replies , you seem very wise and give excellent advice. The reason I decided to put her away for winters is with my job schedule I would be lucky to fly her once a month, by time I get to airport after work it's dark thirty.Im a VFR pilot and fly twice a week in the summer. But winters it's different up here . I have my bird outside so I pay to put her inside for the worst part of the winter.In mid winter I'd have to pay a fee to bring her into the FBO hangar andpay them to get her pre heated. So to go thru all that trouble and $$ to fly once a month if I'm lucky it's not worth the hassle. Yes she sat for a while but I was told by the broker the previous owner put $12,000 in last two annuals and then threw in the towel. She had low hrs on frame and motor but she started right up instantly and sounded and ran like a top. After I had a pre buy and the tech said she's got great bone and absolutely not internal corrosion. Matter of fact my Mech said first time he opened her up he was really surprised how clean she was. Best pre 75 Mooney he's ever seen. I know she sat , but with a good pre but I thought I could fly her the way she was for at least a few yrs before I start to replace big items. Since she had a great pre buy and she sounded , flew and ran like a top I thought it was worth the chance. Basically Tim at Island Bound Aircraft lied like a rug on most everything he told me about condition and what was previously done to her . If she didn't run and fly the way she did and I got an iffy pre buy I would have run away fast. So as it stands I can either put tanks in her or do the annual but I can't get annual done till tanks are fixed. And at ballpark $11,000 for bladders and instal I just can't afford it. I saved and busted my ass for 5 long years to pay off debts and save money for down payment . I bought her pretty cheap so at least I'm not out $30-40,000. I paid $18,500 , but if you saw her you'd not believe it. I knew she would need an engine in several yrs but thought I'd get thru till then. Never in a million yrs did I expect to have her grounded because of fuel tanks. This has completely sucked the love of flying out of me and I'm even thinking of dumping her for cheap cause I won't be realistically getting her in the air for 2-5 yrs. truly rips my heart out cause it's been my one and only goal for last 5 yrs to find a little M20C. To see her parked on the ramp now actually brings me to tears . But thank you !! your very wise and I hope from my story and the advice you posted here some other future Mooney lover won't get caught like I did..... Quote
Marauder Posted January 28, 2017 Report Posted January 28, 2017 Carusoam i enjoy your replies , you seem very wise and give excellent advice. The reason I decided to put her away for winters is with my job schedule I would be lucky to fly her once a month, by time I get to airport after work it's dark thirty.Im a VFR pilot and fly twice a week in the summer. But winters it's different up here . I have my bird outside so I pay to put her inside for the worst part of the winter.In mid winter I'd have to pay a fee to bring her into the FBO hangar andpay them to get her pre heated. So to go thru all that trouble and $$ to fly once a month if I'm lucky it's not worth the hassle. Yes she sat for a while but I was told by the broker the previous owner put $12,000 in last two annuals and then threw in the towel. She had low hrs on frame and motor but she started right up instantly and sounded and ran like a top. After I had a pre buy and the tech said she's got great bone and absolutely not internal corrosion. Matter of fact my Mech said first time he opened her up he was really surprised how clean she was. Best pre 75 Mooney he's ever seen. I know she sat , but with a good pre but I thought I could fly her the way she was for at least a few yrs before I start to replace big items. Since she had a great pre buy and she sounded , flew and ran like a top I thought it was worth the chance. Basically Tim at Island Bound Aircraft lied like a rug on most everything he told me about condition and what was previously done to her . If she didn't run and fly the way she did and I got an iffy pre buy I would have run away fast. So as it stands I can either put tanks in her or do the annual but I can't get annual done till tanks are fixed. And at ballpark $11,000 for bladders and instal I just can't afford it. I saved and busted my ass for 5 long years to pay off debts and save money for down payment . I bought her pretty cheap so at least I'm not out $30-40,000. I paid $18,500 , but if you saw her you'd not believe it. I knew she would need an engine in several yrs but thought I'd get thru till then. Never in a million yrs did I expect to have her grounded because of fuel tanks. This has completely sucked the love of flying out of me and I'm even thinking of dumping her for cheap cause I won't be realistically getting her in the air for 2-5 yrs. truly rips my heart out cause it's been my one and only goal for last 5 yrs to find a little M20C. To see her parked on the ramp now actually brings me to tears . But thank you !! your very wise and I hope from my story and the advice you posted here some other future Mooney lover won't get caught like I did..... I was close to being in your shoes when I bought my plane. Fortunately the mechanic who was doing my pre-buy was watching out for a first time plane buyer and caught the leaking tanks and a few other discrepancies that would have cost me a lot during the first year of ownership. With a renegotiated price, I was financially fine on the purchase. However after I closed on the deal there were things I wanted to do, like sticking in an engine analyzer. I really think most new owners like me were naive on the true cost of owning an airplane. Fortunately all of that is 26 years behind me. Buyers today with access to places like MooneySpace, really have much more information available to them than even 10 years ago about buying a plane. I feel for your situation and hopefully you will come up with a plan to get your plane back in the air. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 1 Quote
gsxrpilot Posted January 28, 2017 Report Posted January 28, 2017 Man, I feel terrible for you. It's heart breaking anytime someone finds themselves in a situation like this. Regardless if you were taken advantage of, or if it was lack of information on your part, or some of both. It doesn't make it any less sad. I've been there with a car or two in my younger days, and it still makes me sick to think about it. Fortunately or unfortunately I didn't get into airplanes until I could really afford it, pay cash, with enough in reserve to replace an engine if required. I'm envious of you young guys who own and fly Mooneys with so many years ahead of you. But I'm glad I was also never in a bad financial situation with an airplane like this. I gotta think that any owner who would put $12,000 into their airplane in repair work, upgrades, or whatever. and then turn around and sell the plane for $18,500... has to know something I don't. And I don't want to be holding the bag when we all find out. I won't mention any names, but there is a good friend who wanted to own a Mooney in the worst way. And a few times almost had a down payment together when a stupid cheap Mooney would become available. I worked hard to talk him out of it each time. Today he has a small interest in a Mooney and is able to fly. And he is very happy he is not an owner. Airplane ownership is not for the faint of heart or the light of wallet. It just isn't. I hope that if I'm ever in a situation that I can't afford to maintain my Mooney, I'll have the good sense to pass it on. We all feel for you and wish you all the best. 1 Quote
Bob_Belville Posted January 28, 2017 Report Posted January 28, 2017 On 1/24/2017 at 2:39 PM, Marcopolo said: FlyHigh, I absolutely get what you're saying about the mechanic and trust, and I'm in no way trying to get you to waiver on that trust, but maybe he's not thinking this whole situation through with you. He has to clean out the entire fuel system from the tanks to the cylinders anyways, putting in a ferry tank after that cleaning process and using it to run the engine so he can finish the anual, minus the tank work, shouldn't cause him too much hesitation. Then you are able to apply for the ferry permit and get resolution, whatever it is and wherever it is. Please make the calls to MSCs, tank repair stations, and Griggs, if your mechanic has issues with you making phone calls then I certainly may question him. Ron I believe you have talked to the guys at Griggs and that they can install bladders now if the plane is at their shop in NE PA. Further, the price of the bladders is acceptable to you. The installed price might be double the cost of the kit. That seems to me to be the solution. Actually 2 possibilities, using a ferry tank or getting your mechanic's blessing on one of the tanks, get the plane to Griggs. If that does not work, it will be March (when Griggs expects the STC) before you know it and flying in Feb. ain't much fun in Concord anyway so keep in touch with Griggs, make sure you get the first kit they ship when the STC is approved. I assume your A&P is willing and able to install the bladders. It's not that difficult for an experienced mechanic. Q.E.D. Quote
carusoam Posted January 28, 2017 Report Posted January 28, 2017 (edited) For frames of reference... 1) I paid 34AMU in Y2k for a pretty ratty old M20C. A decade later it sold more worn out, less paint on, corrosion showing up on many surfaces, water ingressing into in the fuel tanks, needing an engine OH, needing tanks, needing paint, needing a GPS, it probably needed an annual too... for 18AMU. Hopefully you see the value in what you have, and learn what you need. Keep both eyes open as you go forwards. Looks like you paid for half a plane and got 90% of a plane. How are your mechanical skills? Do you like to work on machines? A couple of young bucks around here have stripped and sealed tanks themselves. One guy got his tanks sealed for a too low cost by an unknown supplier at the time, and it worked... using the search function will reveal their stories. 2) Last frame of reference. An airworthy M20C flies around 140 kts or so... A Brand new Ovation fresh from the factory flies about 180 kts or so, using 50% more fuel to do it. Have you seen the price of a New O? Get your tanks back in airworthy condition and fly on! Keep in mind, I'm only a PP. I've been working on keeping things running for a while. The sun is always shining on my side of the airport. Best regards, -a- Edited January 28, 2017 by carusoam 1 Quote
flyhigh603 Posted January 28, 2017 Author Report Posted January 28, 2017 Ruth at Griggs has been awesome !! Spoke several times and got great info.Yes they are looking at a march eta to be able to sell tank kits to public.But if you have them install tanks they charge $10,200 for kit and instal and can be done now cause they fabricate the tanks. My Mech will install the kit no problem . But $10-11,000 for tanks installed wasn't in the budget. She is a bare bones VFR M20C which is why I got her cheap. Internally she's the cleanest Pre 75 Mooney my Mech has ever seen . She's got great paint so she was taken care of at some point. I had a meeting with my Mech this morn and I decided to pickle the engine and park her for a few yrs to save up to get her in the air again. My long range plans are to eventually restore her with a Hawker hurricane paint skeem with the shark mouth etc. Yes I see all of your eyes rolling ... like my wife says ...at least you'll have a plane that's yours to visit at the airport .She will fly again so it's better than constantly looking. But man is it gonna be hard now to rent a 172 to stay current........ Quote
carusoam Posted January 28, 2017 Report Posted January 28, 2017 The economy is improving all over the place. What's it like in NH? What kind of work do you do? There once was something Available called paid over-time. Working a few hours extra each week could cover the surprise expenses that come up. Best regards, -a- Quote
Marauder Posted January 28, 2017 Report Posted January 28, 2017 Personally, if I bought an airplane and had to store it to be able to keep it with the hopes of flying it again, I would probably sell it. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 6 Quote
cnoe Posted January 28, 2017 Report Posted January 28, 2017 Airworthy M20s usually don't sell for $18.5K. Not even close. I feel badly for the OP but somebody knew this plane had serious problems prior to the sale. I'd look well beyond the tanks before dropping another $10K on her too. Caveat Emptor my friends!Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 2 Quote
gsxrpilot Posted January 28, 2017 Report Posted January 28, 2017 45 minutes ago, Marauder said: Personally, if I bought an airplane and had to store it to be able to keep it with the hopes of flying it again, I would probably sell it. I wouldn't "probably" sell it. It would get sold, even if I had to call Alan. Are you storing it indoors? What is that costing per month. And then there's the loan payment? I'd be selling and cutting my losses. 1 Quote
bonal Posted January 28, 2017 Report Posted January 28, 2017 Who was it on MS that got a tank re seal done for around 2 grand. Don't give up find a way and start living your dream Quote
Mooneymite Posted January 28, 2017 Report Posted January 28, 2017 Certainly...."somewhere" there is a salvaged C with bladders? Quote
ArtVandelay Posted January 28, 2017 Report Posted January 28, 2017 I would do the reseal yourself, cost less than $500, you got the time, it's not technicality difficult? 4 Quote
lamont337 Posted January 28, 2017 Report Posted January 28, 2017 18 minutes ago, teejayevans said: I would do the reseal yourself, cost less than $500, you got the time, it's not technicality difficult? Exactly. Sweat equity. Could have this wrapped up by spring. Many have mentioned how much it sucks to strip a tank. I have done it and it's not much fun. Watching my plane sit in the ramp while I try to squirrel away an additional $10K would be a whole lot LESS fun. 2 Quote
LANCECASPER Posted January 28, 2017 Report Posted January 28, 2017 19 hours ago, flyhigh603 said: I saved and busted my ass for 5 long years to pay off debts and save money for down payment I would guess that if you borrowed money on the airplane, one of the clauses in the contract said that you had to keep the airplane in annual inspection and keep it airworthy to protect the lender. You might talk to the lender and explain your situation, have them look at the bluebook and maybe they could loan part of the money for the tank reseal or bladders. Quote
KSMooniac Posted January 28, 2017 Report Posted January 28, 2017 You need to figure out a way to strip and reseal the tanks by some combo of sweat equity, owner-assist, etc. The biggest portion of the cost is the labor so learn what you can and dive in. It doesn't sound like you could make anything worse at this point.Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk 1 Quote
Hector Posted January 29, 2017 Report Posted January 29, 2017 You need to figure out a way to strip and reseal the tanks by some combo of sweat equity, owner-assist, etc. The biggest portion of the cost is the labor so learn what you can and dive in. It doesn't sound like you could make anything worse at this point.Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk I would definitely be thinking this way. You only need to do one tank in fact. Then take it to one of the pros for the other if you prefer. You might find that after doing one tank the satisfaction of doing the job is enough to get the other one done. The other solution is the ferry tank. We have a Mooneyspacer here who has used them in the past to augment the range of his C for long flights. Search for Oscar and send him a PM. He either rented or owns a small ferry tank and can certainly give you some pointers on how to set that up. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote
Alan Fox Posted January 29, 2017 Report Posted January 29, 2017 34 minutes ago, Hector said: I would definitely be thinking this way. You only need to do one tank in fact. Then take it to one of the pros for the other if you prefer. You might find that after doing one tank the satisfaction of doing the job is enough to get the other one done. The other solution is the ferry tank. We have a Mooneyspacer here who has used them in the past to augment the range of his C for long flights. Search for Oscar and send him a PM. He either rented or owns a small ferry tank and can certainly give you some pointers on how to set that up. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk I can tell you from experience , that there is NO SATISFACTION in doing a reseal....The satisfaction , will come when it is being flown.....That being said , he has made the commitment to keeping the aircraft.... Good deal , because I am in striking distance of this one !!!!! 1 Quote
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