flyhigh603 Posted January 21, 2017 Report Posted January 21, 2017 (edited) Hello Gentlemen ! I have a serious problem.My new to me 1966 Mooney M20C is in the middle of its first annual and i got the call i didn't expect from my Mech . Especially since i had a thorough Pre buy from a shop that serviced Moonies . I can't believe they missed this !!! Aside from the errant things that were missed from previous annuals my Mech discovered that my tanks were sealed with a "Red " sealer that was deemed illegal some time ago. First indication was after 3 months of owning the plane i discovered a small weep from left tank, then she was hard to start last few flights. He showed me where in the last 10 years there was some newer sealant applied but the old red sealant was never stripped out. I noticed my bird was very hard to start last 3 flights because old sealant was clogging up my fuel system ( which i didn't know was going on ). It seems the sealant has deteriorated , flaked off in tiny , tiny, pieces and is clogging up my carb, fuel strainers, and and fuel lines. He said that both tanks were basically illegal for flight so here is the kick in the nads. He won't sign off for a ferry permit to have it flown somewhere to have the tank work done and he absolutely will not ever strip and reseal Mooney tanks ever again. So he said my only option is to get fuel bladders. I trust him completely and he is the most respected Master A&P / IA in the Northeast US. So does anyone out there in Mooney world have recent exp finding and having bladders installed ?? Where do i find them the cheapest ? And can i find used bladders that are airworthy. I`m just an average blue collar joe that is trying to do this safely and the cheapest was possible. I looked up O&N but apparently they went out of business. Any good advice guys ??? Edited January 21, 2017 by flyhigh603 Quote
MHemperly Posted January 21, 2017 Report Posted January 21, 2017 Sorry to hear about your troubles! O&N did go out of business but from my understanding another company picked them up and bought the stc's and they are providing parts as well as new kits. Try the search function. This was just a recent topic that we were all talking about. I have bladders and love them! Good luck! Mike 1 Quote
neilpilot Posted January 21, 2017 Report Posted January 21, 2017 36 minutes ago, flyhigh603 said: He won't sign off for a ferry permit to have it flown somewhere to have the tank work done and he absolutely will not ever strip and reseal Mooney tanks ever again. So he said my only option is to get fuel bladders. You do have the option of telling him to sign off your annual with discrepancies. Then you would be free to have another A&P endorse the ferry permit. I had bladders installed in my 64E back in 2001, and was happy with them for 11 years until my insurance company bought the E. However, if your current fuel system is safe to allow the ferry flight, you do have an option. 2 Quote
Bob_Belville Posted January 21, 2017 Report Posted January 21, 2017 22 minutes ago, MHemperly said: Sorry to hear about your troubles! O&N did go out of business but from my understanding another company picked them up and bought the stc's and they are providing parts as well as new kits. Try the search function. This was just a recent topic that we were all talking about. I have bladders and love them! Good luck! Mike MSer "Marauder" talked to Griggs Aircraft Refinishing, the new owner of the O&N STC, recently. I'd suggest sending Chris a PM and get an update on whether the new folks have their ducks in a row yet. 1 Quote
Oscar Avalle Posted January 21, 2017 Report Posted January 21, 2017 It is also my understanding that another company is supporting the bladders. So they are still available and serviceable. I have them installed on my M20C (32 gallons per side). Love them. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote
N6758N Posted January 21, 2017 Report Posted January 21, 2017 Google Griggs aircraft refinishing, they own the STC now. Quote
DonMuncy Posted January 21, 2017 Report Posted January 21, 2017 I am certainly not trying to start yet another discussion on bladders vs reseal, but you should be aware that you do have the option of resealing. Read all the prior posts and decide which way you want to go, as It looks like you need to move the plane anyway. 4 Quote
slowflyin Posted January 21, 2017 Report Posted January 21, 2017 I am certainly not trying to start yet another discussion on bladders vs reseal, but you should be aware that you do have the option of resealing. Read all the prior posts and decide which way you want to go, as It looks like you need to move the plane anyway. +1Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote
bonal Posted January 21, 2017 Report Posted January 21, 2017 Personally I am real glad I have bladders but with your situation I guess it's just a question of getting to someone willing to do a proper strip and re seal. As for installing bladders assuming you can get them make sure the master mech knows proper installation process and hopefully has had some previous experience in the task. 1 Quote
Mooneymite Posted January 21, 2017 Report Posted January 21, 2017 I got this email when I contacted Griggs: Hello Gus and thank you for contacting us. Yes we bought the STC's for all the fuel system that O&N previously owned. we are continuing to sell parts/ pieces/ support and new kits as well. All of the people that work here used to work for O&N and actually our fuel tank guys are the ones that helped O&N design and build them for all these years. At the moment we are in the process of getting our PMA setup here at our facility just waiting on the blessing from the FAA to be able to complete new kits. In the mean time we have parts we can ship out for people in need. So please let everyone know that nothing has really changed other than the name and location. Show quoted text -- Matt Griggs Griggs Aircraft Refinishing LLC 17 Runway RD Tunkhannock, PA. 18657 2 Quote
gsxrpilot Posted January 21, 2017 Report Posted January 21, 2017 My tanks are getting resealed right now. I decided it was a much better option then bladders. I'd pay the guy and pull the plane out of his shop ASAP. There are always options and anyone who tells you there isn't, doesn't know and shouldn't be relied on for ANY advice. 3 Quote
flyhigh603 Posted January 21, 2017 Author Report Posted January 21, 2017 I agree but the Mech just found the whole deal of the tank fuel issue mid annual so there are other issues that gotta be corrected before I can even fly her. And I don't wanna have her fllown after all the sediment that came out of the screens. It's just unfortunate circumstances that prevent me from bringing her to a resealing facility like weep no more. I get it but I don't like it. So what does a strip and reseal go for , ballpark ?? Quote
gsxrpilot Posted January 21, 2017 Report Posted January 21, 2017 At Houston Tank Specialists I was quoted $7500 for the tanks in my M20K 252. They are 37.5 gal useable. Quote
gsxrpilot Posted January 21, 2017 Report Posted January 21, 2017 Just now, flyhigh603 said: I agree but the Mech just found the whole deal of the tank fuel issue mid annual so there are other issues that gotta be corrected before I can even fly her. And I don't wanna have her fllown after all the sediment that came out of the screens. It's just unfortunate circumstances that prevent me from bringing her to a resealing facility like weep no more. I get it but I don't like it. So what does a strip and reseal go for , ballpark ?? That's fine, but I'd not want that guy doing any more work on my airplane as his opinion/expertise is completely suspect. I'd pay him, pull it out of the hangar and then get on the phone with a real Mooney shop. There are plenty, and they will likely have a solution for you. It might seem expensive up front, but will undoubtedly save a bunch of money in the long run. And probably save money by the end of this annual. 1 Quote
carusoam Posted January 21, 2017 Report Posted January 21, 2017 (edited) Take a big breath FH603... You have two threads discussing the same thing simultaneously. Getting to the bottom of what the challenge is first, is a good idea. Then work on the solutions. Get ready to read your logs, looking for a few updates and maintenance details. Since you are in Annual at this time... Now would be a good time to see what is in the gascolator. Got any pictures? Proceed slowly and methodically... Best regards, -a- Edited January 22, 2017 by carusoam 1 Quote
flyhigh603 Posted January 21, 2017 Author Report Posted January 21, 2017 Yes I made the mistake of posting twice , I apologize. The Mech pulled rust and sealant from screens and gasolator. Pretty much whole fuel system. My fuel tank cap rings need to be replaced because they are pretty rusted / corroded. Only thing on the plane with corrosion. Funny thing is the reason I bought her was because she was so solid , and ran like a top every time I flew her . At start the prop wouldn't even turn full revolution and she was running. I put about 40 hrs since July , but as I said she was a bitch to start last 3-4 flights. I thought it was just the low temps. I guess I'm just a little hyped up with the news this morn. I factored a high annual being first one I do at my home base but wasn't expecting having to deal with serious tank issues since they were supposedly sealed 3 yrs ago. I imagine that the bladders for a M20C are cheaper than models with more fuel / tanks. At least I hope..... I thought about ferry tank deal but by the time I get one , have it installed etc , I'd be better just putting money in the bladders . Quote
carusoam Posted January 21, 2017 Report Posted January 21, 2017 (edited) New SS fuel necks are available from your local MSC. If you can't find your local MSC, Mooney has a list on their site. Sherri at Lasar is also very helpful for parts like this. These parts are expensive enough to be extremely agrivating. You will be happy, because they might solve the problem you are talking about... Is your plane stored outside? My 65C was stored outside. The fuel necks rusted through dropping rust into the tanks. When they let water into the tanks unabated it was time to do some serious thinking... Best regards, -a- Edited January 21, 2017 by carusoam 1 Quote
flyhigh603 Posted January 21, 2017 Author Report Posted January 21, 2017 Yes she is outside 8 months a year. Never really found much water when sumped but did notice small , small particles occasionally. Occasionally the sumps would weep .But it's the sealant that worries my Mech. I'm wondering if the bladder kit comes with fuel necks? When I got her in July there was no leaks in tanks , but come Sept I was getting a tiny weep . I watched it and my Mech was aware when I had him look at plane for unrelated matter.So no doubt it's a failing fuel tank sealant. Quote
neilpilot Posted January 21, 2017 Report Posted January 21, 2017 1 hour ago, flyhigh603 said: I factored a high annual being first one I do at my home base but wasn't expecting having to deal with serious tank issues since they were supposedly sealed 3 yrs ago. "Supposedly sealed 3 yrs. ago"?? Either they were or they weren't. Who did the re-seal? 1 Quote
Hank Posted January 22, 2017 Report Posted January 22, 2017 A full Strip and Reseal for my C was $6500 in 2010; bladder install at the same time was ~$10,000. You could out a ferry tank in the back,fly off for a strip and reseal and come out money ahead. 2 Quote
Andy95W Posted January 22, 2017 Report Posted January 22, 2017 8 hours ago, Hyett6420 said: Paul Beck owns weep no more and i would strongly recomend giving him a call. He is based North US so is close to you as the Mooney flies. ps i live in the UK so apologies if my UsA geography is a bit off. We forgive you, Andrew. It's about 1,000 miles from Concorde, NH (where the OP lives- New England) and Paul Beck at Weep No More (Minnesota- Injun country.) Please don't quiz me on my British geography. I can drive from Heathrow to my brother's place near Gloucester but only if I use GPS (I believe you call it "Sat Nav") 1 Quote
Guest Posted January 22, 2017 Report Posted January 22, 2017 I can't imagine that the sealant will all fall off in one ferry flight, turning you into a flaming comet or causing an engine failure. I would question if at the last Annual the screens were even cleaned. Since you've owned it you've put on 40 odd hours and about 400 gallons of fuel and this is the first time you're checking the fuel system I'd be sure to clean the gascolator and screen, (be sure SB M20-200 is done), drain the carburetor bowl, clean the carburetor finger screen and sump the tanks into a clean glass jar to see what you've really got. Replace your fuel cap O rings per SB M20-229A. Then run the plane for an hour or two, then recheck the gascolator screen, once you see what's in the gascolator you can make a decision about a ferry flight for a strip and reveal or bladders. Without some proper diagnosis, your maintainer is only guessing at the severity of the sealant decay. Clarence Quote
flyhigh603 Posted January 22, 2017 Author Report Posted January 22, 2017 The carb was replaced at last annual with a brand new one and my Mech said that with only 40 or so hrs run since last annual hes never seen fuel screens clog up like they did. I mean the long finger screen from the carb was packed full. So in his opinion the sealant is failing at an excellerating rate. Not just a little at a time, larger chunks where found at bottom tanks and sealant on side of tank are pretty bad.Which also explains why my sumps were starting to weep, they were getting sealant material lodged in them.The tanks were supposed to have been done 3 annuals ago by some Old timer out of Gainesville Fla.i tried to contact him but I've been told he no longer turns a wrench that he retired some 2 1/2 yrs ago.Looks like he just patched here and there .but again it's the old red sealant that's failing .Such a massive bummer because I had not factored in a full tank job.So major possibility my bird won't see air for a very long time.I just got her 7 months ago so this is hitting pretty hard in the nads......I don't want to fly her anywhere with what I've seen. Quote
Sabremech Posted January 22, 2017 Report Posted January 22, 2017 Are there any other A&P's on the field or nearby who will help you with a strip and reseal? I think that's you're only quick way to get your bird back flying as it could take the bladder folks a while to get their PMA. I know you like your mechanic and he won't do a strip and reseal for whatever reason, but somebody else will. Don't be held hostage. 1 Quote
lamont337 Posted January 22, 2017 Report Posted January 22, 2017 (edited) Would he consider re-sealing them if you stripped them yourself? Or would he agree to supervise you resealing them yourself? Don't get me wrong, I swore myself I'd never strip a tank again. It sucks. But if I were in your shoes I would have to seriously consider it, especially now that I have a hangar. Certainly easier on the wallet, but much harder on the arms and fingers. There was a thread recently where some folks had cobbled together a pluming system that would automatically circulate the solvent through the tanks. Made the removal process much easier from what I understand. Long thread but very informative: Edited January 22, 2017 by lamont337 Adding Link Quote
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