Are you a VFR or IFR pilot?

[Danb]

Don't go there Andrew

[grami-air]

I've been a Mooney owner for over 19 years, ( F model for 16 years and a K model for 3), and instrumented rated for over 27 years.  The hard part is staying current out here in Phoenix, so needless to say I get very little actual.  I've taken my Mooney (F model) 4-5 times back to Wisconsin, once to Indiana, Texas and San Francisco, at least a dozen trips to Reno, 2 dozen trips to Salt Lake City in summer and winter and about 3 dozen trips or so to San Diego.  The IR really pays for itself on the west coast dealing with marine layers.  I've found the Mooney to really be a transportation machine, especially my K, it has so much capability.  But for the sheer pleasure of flying within 100 NM of the local airport, I would invest in a nice C150.  Just my $.02 worth.

[201er]

3 hours ago, rbuck said:

Just use this link: http://visitedstatesmap.com. Once you're there, click the states you've been to, download the map (I do a small size), and add it to your signature block in your MooneySpace settings.

Oh, that looks fun! Can I play too?
 

PS I did some of it VFR but most of it IFR

Edited December 1, 2016 by 201er

[bonal]

To the OP I am VFR only owned my Mooney for 3.5yrs Have made trips from NoCal to San diego area Las Vegas and a couple times to Missoula Montana over the Sierras and Bitter route mountains.  Only ever had to scrub one flight and IFR would have made no difference since I was in a C150 that was VFR only. I've no doubt having the IFR would increase my knowledge and add tools to my box but for me they are tools I have not needed for my mission.  I'm not too concerned my go/no go is very clear just like the sky I fly in.  I use flight following on any trip more than 30 min from home so I try to be in the system when practical.  My home field has only one non prescision approach and I doubt most of you would be willing to fly it lots of mountains to fly a radio fix through. Like most of you I follow weather patterns all over the country out of general interest and cant imagine being based on the East side of the Rocky mountains and not having an IFR out west its really simple to predict weather patterns. Any way my hats off to all those better pilots out there my added training has been and will continue to be unusual attitude / aerobatic but plan on working with my CFI to improve my ins flying with more hood time.  The other side to this discussion is IFR pilots that have tons of hours and still manage to get killed because they fly into conditions that were too much for them or perhaps the airplanes they were flying.  Sometimes added skills can increase the risk not mitigate it.

[Bob_Belville]

14 hours ago, kerry said:

I'm a VFR pilot and been flying Mooney's 14 years.  I was working on my IFR and I contacted my insurance company and was told my IFR ticket would save me only $250 per year.  I'm base out of Las Vegas and I figured with all the blue skies here a IFR wouldn't benefit me much. I think if you live in southern California with all that fog then a IFR would be a must.  I do think a IFR rating would make anyone a better pilot but I also believe if you fly IFR in a single engine can add some risk.  If your engine quits your screwed,   I spoke with a Mooney pilot a few years ago that was in the soup and had an engine quit.  Clouds to the ground.  He landed in an orchard.  He was very lucky.  His wings were ripped off with the fuselage going right between a row of trees.  He said he'll never fly a single engine  in IFR conditions again.  I fly by the blue card.  I have a blue card in my wallet.  I pull it out.  If it matches the sky then I fly.  If it doesn't match then I don't fly.

I think I've found the airplane for you. Safety first.

[Htwjr]

I have had my IR about two weeks now and have not flown since I got it.  If I can do it anybody can. I got my ppl in May of 2013 and the M20C in June.  I have about 250 hrs almost all cross country.  I have flown all over the southeast and to the Bahamas VFR.  I believe the IR has made me a better pilot than I was if just for a better understanding of the system and my plane.  I don't plan on flying any hard ifr but would like to be able to get thru a layer going up or down.   I don't think I have ever heard anyone say they regretted getting the rating.

[kortopates]

27 years of flying, 26 as instrument rated. M20K owner for 14 years, as well as CFI-II & A&P with many 2,000nm trips beyond the borders of the Continental US.

I love instrument flying but then my interest in flying grew out of interest to travel. So I could not imagine having flight limited by clouds given my utilitarian use of the airplane. Plus I am something of amateur meteorologist and get a lot of satisfaction out of planning my way as safely as I can through and around weather; not by ignoring the risk but planning for contingency's all along the way. Diverting isn't frequent but its happens from time to time.

But I have lots of VFR pilot friends and I know full well that instrument flying is not for every one. It certainly has nothing to do with their skill set either but their different interest in flying. Trying telling a pilot that loves to do aerobatic flying or the super-cub pilot who's flying enjoyment comes from a sunday breakfast outing flight with some formation flying on the way there. Of course there is much overlap were the lines get blurry between the extreme examples I am trying to convey. But I have known and worked with several VFR only Mooney pilots that have no need for instrument flight either. Which is absolutely fine. 

But just like that there are a few in the VFR group that I think are far too brave at scud running rather than getting their instrument rating there are also probably more instrument rated pilots that don't take their proficiency requirements seriously and get into trouble. And this is why the "proficient" instrument pilot is so rare. As hard as it was for so many to get the rating, some pilots taking many years to get it, that was the easiest part by a long shot. The hard part is truly embracing that the rating is merely a license to learn and that the skills you learned to get it are most volatile pilot skills you'll ever have. To be a proficient instrument pilot is an entirely different mindset that now requires most of us to devote the majority of our flying to maintaining and building our instrument skill set.  Yet with so many just barely ticking off their 6 approaches within the last 6 months how many are still maintaining their partial panel skills? Sorry to get off topic but all too much I hear the phrase that goes like "I don't do hard IFR". But these are often the same people that get into trouble when their AP fails in IMC or heaven forbid they have a vacuum failure and have no extra redundant instrumentation like a standby AI. Just a recently as this last May we saw a V-35 break up in flight after a vacuum failure that happened while VMC on top at 7000' while on an IFR flight plan. But the radar track implies the plane broke apart within about 1000' of descent. The plane was piloted by a pilot with an ATP and expired CFI from the late 90's IIRC; that ended with 3 fatal's. I also had an instrument rated Mooney pilot friend, not current for probably some years, with questionable instrument equipment, die with his pax from VFR scud running in the mountains - for a short 45 minute local flight. 

So although I agree the more tools we have in our pilot tool kit the more potential we have to be better pilots. But what makes us safer better pilots is not the rating's we've earned perhaps, long ago, but how much we invest in maintaining our proficiency for the kind of flying we do - especially including the unexpected emergency procedures, upset recovery, x-winds, emergency engine out landings, etc etc. 

[Wakeup]

Wanting to buy some materials to start my IR.  What should I buy?  Like to hear from the guys that recently passed or currently working in it.  Thanks.  Troy 

[MooneyBob]

19 minutes ago, Wakeup said:

Wanting to buy some materials to start my IR.  What should I buy?  Like to hear from the guys that recently passed or currently working in it.  Thanks.  Troy 

Definitely some kind of mobile app. I used Sportys IFR  app.  You can study, learn, watch videos, take practice exams anywhere anytime. Nice graphical tool. Really helps. I believe the Kings have something similar or better. 

[Bob_Belville]

41 minutes ago, Wakeup said:

Wanting to buy some materials to start my IR.  What should I buy?  Like to hear from the guys that recently passed or currently working in it.  Thanks.  Troy 

PM MooneyGirl who just aced the instrument written.

[KLRDMD]

4 hours ago, grami-air said:

The hard part is staying current out here in Phoenix, so needless to say I get very little actual. 

Being in Tucson, I've pretty much resigned myself to just getting an IPC every 6 months. Even now and then, just for something different I'll go up with a safety pilot but getting an IPC can be done much more quickly and efficiently than flying with a safety pilot.

[gsxrpilot]

Just now, KLRDMD said:

Being in Tucson, I've pretty much resigned myself to just getting an IPC every 6 months. Even now and then, just for something different I'll go up with a safety pilot but getting an IPC can be done much more quickly and efficiently than flying with a safety pilot.

My experience was completely different. It took me several months to get time with a CFII to do an IPC. So now I fly with a safety pilot regularly to make sure I never need an IPC again.

[KLRDMD]

Just now, gsxrpilot said:

My experience was completely different. It took me several months to get time with a CFII to do an IPC. So now I fly with a safety pilot regularly to make sure I never need an IPC again.

Maybe since I am a CFI (and CFII, MEI & ATP) I have easier access to CFIs than others. And other CFIs don't charge me either as a general rule 

[thinwing]

23 hours ago, 201er said:

Both!!!

Owner for five years, got my instrument training and checkride in my Mooney. Furthest I've been from home? 2100nm to San Diego. But most remote places were Cambridge Bay, Canada (1900nm), San Andres, Colombia (1700nm), or Trinidad and Tobago (1900nm). Longest single flight, 1320nm from Linden, NJ to SAN Marcos, TX nonstop.

To the guys saying instrument capability doesn't make you a better pilot, bullshit! Having additional skills and knowledge is undeniably better. If the guy is an outstanding VFR pilot he will either make just as excellent an instrument pilot OR he will remain a VFR pilot but with greater skills and knowledge at his disposal should he ever need them. Folks, three hours of mandatory instrument for private pilot just doesn't cut it. The Mooney can go far enough fast enough for weather to unexpectedly change.

I have flown NJ to FL IFR and VFR just the same. Sometimes it is less hassle going VFR on a beautiful day. Sometimes IFR is the only way. But many times both are possible but IFR is safer and less consuming. It is possible to fly down the entire east coast with it being 3000 or even 2000 overcast. But that would be difficult and stressful. I much prefer to kick back on top of the clouds knowing I have the instruments and capability to get back down on demand. Flying on top of a cloud deck VFR without instrument capability is flat out stupid.

Sometimes IFR in VMC is preferable. For example at night, international, or into unfamiliar terrain.

Having an instrument ticket does not mean you have to fly IFR or in challenging IFR. That is up to the pilot to decide. Likewise, a private pilot certificate allows a pilot to fly in crazy wind or marginal VFR conditions but it may be best not to.

It is certainly best to have the capability to fly both VFR and IFR and to have the prudence when not to fly at all.

And I totally agree!!Mike with the IR ,can pretty much fly any where in the world !

[carusoam]

Four pages in, and I'm pretty sure I understand what the original thought was...

1) Pilots are all the same level...  they are human beings.  

2) Is there a way to measure that one human being is better than the next?  Some are pretty outstanding.  They don't need to be measured...

3) By page four it has become obvious, an AH with an IR is still an AH...

4) There is a similar argument that goes back through time regarding college diplomas...  it's true, you can be an AH with a degree too!

5) What counts...

- Education

- Experience

- Proficiency

6) What can make you better, is how you share what you know... (thinking out loud here)

 

If getting an IR was going to make me a better person, I would have started much sooner..

 

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Bravoman]

On 11/30/2016 at 9:59 PM, gsxrpilot said:

I guess I read Tom's post a bit differently.  OF course getting an IFR rating will make any pilot better than they were before the IFR rating. But a pilot who has an IFR rating isn't automatically better than a different pilot who isn't yet.  There are some very good pilots out there who aren't IFR rated. And there are some IFR rated pilots who are pretty terrible. But certainly a good pilot or a poor pilot will undoubtedly be better by working through and obtaining and Instrument rating.

Now it you really want to become a good stick and rudder pilot and be able to control your Mooney to much tighter tolerances than even an Instrument or Commercial rating will do, learn to fly formation. Go and get your FAST Card. 

I want to take some acrobatic/unusual attitude recovery training with Patty wagstaffs school in st Augustine or the woman who instructs out of Suwannee Tn(can't recall her name). I've heard it's good stuff.

[DaV8or]

8 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

I think I've found the airplane for you. Safety first.

We don't have a "don't like" button, but that's pretty lame. A guy wants to fly an airplane and be safe as he can and you call him what? Screw this macho crap.

[Htwjr]

In response to Wakeup, I used the King online courses for the written as well as the practical and was very pleased with both.  They were accessable from anywhere and I liked how the practice questions immediately followed a lesson with explanations.  I bought the Sportys course first and I did watch the videos but for me the King course was best.  What worked best for me was to try to watch a section each day and make notes and answer the questions.  By the end I had the whole course condensed to several pages of notes.  It is amazing what you can remember/learn when you set your mind to it.  

[Bob_Belville]

He said he'll never fly a single engine  in IFR conditions again.  I fly by the blue card.  I have a blue card in my wallet.  I pull it out.  If it matches the sky then I fly.  If it doesn't match then I don't fly.

8 hours ago, DaV8or said:

We don't have a "don't like" button, but that's pretty lame. A guy wants to fly an airplane and be safe as he can and you call him what? Screw this macho crap.

You may be right. I was reacting to the smarty conclusion Kerry came to at the end of his post. If he supposes that by restricting flight to "blue card" sky conditions he will eliminate risk he lacks imagination. Engines quit at inconvenient times. Ask MooneyGirl. Autopilots try to kill you. Ask Amelia. He endorses his friend's conclusion that IFR in a single engine is too risky. I demur. 

But I did not call Kerry anything nor do I think that I am guilty of "macho crap" so I think you're a little hyperbolic. 

[Marauder]

I hear a fat woman coming.


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[Bob_Belville]

Just now, Marauder said:

I hear a fat woman coming.


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Come on in, the water's fine. 

[Marauder]

He said he'll never fly a single engine  in IFR conditions again.  I fly by the blue card.  I have a blue card in my wallet.  I pull it out.  If it matches the sky then I fly.  If it doesn't match then I don't fly.
You may be right. I was reacting to the smarty conclusion Kerry came to at the end of his post. If he supposes that by restricting flight to "blue card" sky conditions he will eliminate risk he lacks imagination. Engines quit at inconvenient times. Ask MooneyGirl. Autopilots try to kill you. Ask Amelia. He endorses his friend's conclusion that IFR in a single engine is too risky. I demur. 
But I did not call Kerry anything nor do I think that I am guilty of "macho crap" so I think you're a little hyperbolic. 

Bob -- Flying for a while, you develop your own level of risk acceptance. When I first started flying IFR I had personal minimums (aka limitations) and they were pretty low. The gravity of what those minimums meant didn't come into play until I was sitting there in a sick airplane over low IMC conditions. Nursing a plane over Appalachian tree covered terrain changed my view on my own risk acceptance. The smell of raw adrenaline filling the cockpit probably had something to do with it as well. I have never faulted a pilot for their own level of risk acceptance or setting their own limitations.

I would also add that depending on how frequently I have flown, I change my personal mins. I implemented my own CCC policy. Currency -- am I legally current to make this flight? Competency -- have I flown enough recently to be competent to make this flight? Confident -- looking at the variables (weather, condition of me and my plane) I am confident that I can safely make the flight?

An example came up recently for a night flight. I was legally current for night flight, I had flown enough night flights to feel competent but my confidence was low since I was struggling with some problems with the plane's spark plugs and possibly harness/mags. I scrubbed night flights until I felt I had the engine concerns resolved.

So I guess that means I was on the kiddie ride with Kerry.




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[mooneyflier]

18 hours ago, Wakeup said:

Wanting to buy some materials to start my IR.  What should I buy?  Like to hear from the guys that recently passed or currently working in it.  Thanks.  Troy 

I finished my written earlier this year. I used the King course. I also bought the Dauntless app. as recommended by a pilot friend. It is very good imho. You can download alot of free material from the FAA web site as well. Good luck!

[N201MKTurbo]

48 minutes ago, mooneyflier said:

I finished my written earlier this year. I used the King course. I also bought the Dauntless app. as recommended by a pilot friend. It is very good imho. You can download alot of free material from the FAA web site as well. Good luck!

I like Dauntless too. I used it for my A&P, commercial and ATP.

[whiskytango]

Got my first Mooney in 1998 and the IR in 2000.  I always file IFR. It makes it easy to get through complex airspace, such as the DC SFRA.