Looking for advice purchasing a plane across the country

[neonbjb]

I'm looking to get into Mooney ownership. This is my second plane - but my first one was purchased near my home with an experienced mechanic who flew into the airplane's home base to do the PPI. With the Mooney - I'm looking at several planes that are across the country, which is new ground for me. I'm looking for some advice from those of you who have been through this before.

I suppose I'd like to start with a plane I've been on and off considering for awhile now:

http://www.selectaviationservices.com/1967mooneym20fexec21.html

On the surface, it looks exactly like what I'm looking for. Considering I plan to do a pre-buy (and possibly annual) at the closest MSC, I don't mind the missing logbook entries (from fire - 8 years ago) so much. What does bother me is:

- The airplane has only had 50 hours put on it in the last 5 years and looks like it has been totally unused for the last 2.

- It had fuel tank leaks found in March of this year, which were repaired at Don Maxwell's shop - is this just forstaying the inevitable or can a fuel tank leak patch last for a long time?

Considering the plane is in Mississippi, it's going to be quite a haul (and likely expense) to get it to Don Maxwell's for a pre-purchase inspection. Is it worth negotiating this transfer considering the red flags I mentioned above? I would also be interested in hearing about clauses you guys have put in your purchase agreements when purchasing planes cross country regarding airworthiness issues and repairs.

[TTaylor]

I have done a purchase from a distance.  It can be done and is not hard.  First accept that it is going to cost some money, but it is nothing compared to the cost of owning the aircraft in the long run.   

Start with a good purchase agreement on who will pay what costs and how issues in the PPI will be handled.  Critical will be who pays for repairs, what repairs are required versus would be nice to do.  Who pays to get the plane back to the owner if the deal falls apart?

The distance to Don Maxwell is nothing for a Mooney and the fact that the tanks were repaired there is a good reason to go there for the PPI. 

The logbooks and lack of flying for the last few years affect the price and you have to decide your risk level and value of each of those to you.  Remember that when you sell the plane the buyer will be merciless about the missing logs. The engine will be a risk, but the PPI should include assessments of the engine. When you arrange the PPI, specifically have the shop assess that as much as possible. My plane did not fly for several years before I purchased it and I have not had any issues.

 

 

[carusoam]

Buying something from a distance....

get to know the plane.  Get to know the owner. Get to know the person selling the plane. Know everything you can...

go see it first.  If going to see it is too expensive, know that your risks of getting really expensive goes up....

1) it helps to be able to see it in person.  Or have somebody see it in person for you... trust in that person's skills is good.

2) it helps to have a known person selling it... trust in that person is good.  There are a few people that sell Mooneys that we know...

3) it helps to have a list of what could possibly go wrong... self reliance is good.  Corrosion, tanks, cams

4) it helps to go see it and meet the person selling it... 

5) a PPI at an MSC is a great idea.  How do you think that is going to happen?  Ask the guy selling it.

6) planes that are not exercised regularly have a way of decaying slowly...

7) are you looking to fly or are you looking to pick up a project?

8) If you have two AMU to throw at this, would you spend it on traveling to see it or blindly start a PPI or annual...

9) It's a real craps shoot doing it this way with a high probability of coming up empty handed.

I only bought one plane from across the country.  I went to see it first.  Everything else was done remotely using the best services I could find.  The seller is well known, the Texas MSC is well known, the plane was not ancient, It's provenance was well known...

Tell us more about your buying skills, mechanical skill, and what you want to do.

flying fast and efficiently is good.  Having to overhaul an engine or re-seal some tanks is good if you are interested in that kind of project.

all it takes is money, time and skill....

Best regards,

-a-

[ArtVandelay]

Mississippi to west Texas is a short hop for a Mooney, only 1.5 hours away.

 I would definitely have the engine borescoped.

Has the plane been hangared?

the devil is in the details, depends on where the fuel leak was.

No matter what, I would keep at least  $10K in cash as a maintenance reserve.

[Bob_Belville]

49 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

Mississippi to west Texas is a short hop for a Mooney, only 1.5 hours away.

 

KGGG is extreme East TX. Longview TX is practically a suburb of Shreveport LA though I'm sure no Texan would so talk. (Maxwell's dentist in there.)  

[jetdriven]

Under-flown airplanes like that in humid climates will usually need a cam and lifters, which usually turns into a 25K+ major overhaul. Borescope won't catch it, pulling two jugs off the same size might. It happened to us and this board is full of owners it's happened to.  

Missing logs are also a very large value deduction. Perhaps 25% or more.  Then the impending ADS-B requirement. 15K and up, right there alone.  

Edited November 12, 2016 by jetdriven

[ArtVandelay]

3 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

KGGG is extreme East TX. Longview TX is practically a suburb of Shreveport LA though I'm sure no Texan would so talk. (Maxwell's dentist in there.)  

I typed too fast...I meant east, thx for correction.

[ArtVandelay]

5 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

Under-flown airplanes like that in humid climates will usually need a cam and lifters, which usually turns into a 25K+ major overhaul. Borescope won't catch it, pulling two jugs off the same size might. It happened to us and this board is full of owners it's happened to.  

Missing logs are also a very large value deduction. Perhaps 25% or more.  Then the impending ADS-B requirement. 15K and up, right there alone.  

While true, if cylinders are clean, that's a good indicator, is there a reason camshaft will corrode before a cylinder walls?

[Bob_Belville]

Just now, teejayevans said:

While true, if cylinders are clean, that's a good indicator, is there a reason camshaft will corrode before a cylinder walls?

There might or might not be a "reason" but it sure happens that cams and lifters fail from corrosion not coincident with cylinders. Happened to my engine which had been flown infrequently for 2-3 years by the prior owner. And no symptoms - found because of prop strike tear down.

[gsxrpilot]

Step 1: Call Don Maxwell and ask him about the plane and for advice. He'll even send you copies of any work and note he has on the plane. Ask his opinion on the plane.
Step 2: Come back here and tell us what he says.

[jetdriven]

59 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

While true, if cylinders are clean, that's a good indicator, is there a reason camshaft will corrode before a cylinder walls?

The lifter faces corrode and then spall. The cylinder walls are nitrided steel with a thin layer of varnish to protect them. The lifters and cam do not. Plus there is enough evidence that the metal used in the cams and or lifters since the mid 90s is basically I feior and the question is when, not if, it will spall. 

At any rate don't buy anything you haven't seen, and nothing an experienced Mooney guy hasn't inspected the steel tubes and spars. Either of those can quickly total one of these planes. A spar replacement for an upper inner cap was 19k for a friend of mine and the main spar cap for the whole wing is twice that. 

Edited November 12, 2016 by jetdriven

[Aviationinfo]

Any engine on any plane is somewhat of a risk for corrosion, however a Lyc that's been sitting is a much higher risk.   My advice is to make sure the price reflects the lack of logs plus a sizable adjustment to account for the likelihood you're going to need to overhaul it.   I'd much rather have an engine with higher time and documentation that shows it has been flown regularly.

[neonbjb]

Any engine on any plane is somewhat of a risk for corrosion, however a Lyc that's been sitting is a much higher risk.   My advice is to make sure the price reflects the lack of logs plus a sizable adjustment to account for the likelihood you're going to need to overhaul it.   I'd much rather have an engine with higher time and documentation that shows it has been flown regularly.

Cams are definitely my biggest fear. I think I'll give Don a call as was suggested and decide from there. Good call.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[Pictreed]

Don patched my tanks 8 years ago and they still leak.  That's nothing on Don.  My understanding is that once it starts developing leaks trying to patch it is temporary.

I'm about to have them completely striped and resealed once I figure out if I want it so it local in Houston or Wilmar. 

So plan for about $8k ish for tank repair. 

[neonbjb]

1 hour ago, Pictreed said:

Don patched my tanks 8 years ago and they still leak.  That's nothing on Don.  My understanding is that once it starts developing leaks trying to patch it is temporary.

I'm about to have them completely striped and resealed once I figure out if I want it so it local in Houston or Wilmar. 

So plan for about $8k ish for tank repair. 

Thanks, that's what I sort of figured - good to hear a confirmation here.

[Chris W]

My wife and I took a look at the above mentioned airplane about 6 weeks ago, I've been out of town on business since... It's hanagered about 45 minutes from my house. At first glance, it looks pretty clean. I had no issues with the body, paint, interior, exc. No evidence of corrosion. We pulled the lower engine cowling off, I didn't see any evidence of leaks or corrosion. All that being said, I am not an A&P, I have not done much with GA Mx. I had the same red flags raised when looking, mostly the lack of use/age of engine overhaul, engine accessories, and avionics. The local FBO mechanic showed us the airplane. He was very pleasant and informative. We did not crank or fly the airplane. The broker called me the next day to setup a flight. That may flight may happen next week...

We are in a similar boat as noeonbjb. We're looking for a good IFR xcountry machine. This will be our first airplane purchase. We're completely open to the idea of a partnership or a club in Central MS. I've had a great experience with being a member of a couple clubs in North MS. We plan on looking at a M20F listed on Barnstormer in Diamond Head, MS next week. Any hints or tips are much appreciated. 

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard, Chris W.

Best regards,

-a-

[Dham]

I purchased my plane it to had flown very little over the last five year prior to my purchasing it. This is my second plane first mooney. Love my plane but wow if you are not familiar with mooney as my self good luck.  My plane was coming out of annual and I had inspection. I have spent two year and counting learning what happens to a plane that flys little. Find a mooney shop and a fellow mooney owner (experienced) to look over plane that Will I'm sure give you much wisdom. Good luck

[neonbjb]

2 hours ago, Chris W said:

My wife and I took a look at the above mentioned airplane about 6 weeks ago, I've been out of town on business since... It's hanagered about 45 minutes from my house. At first glance, it looks pretty clean. I had no issues with the body, paint, interior, exc. No evidence of corrosion. We pulled the lower engine cowling off, I didn't see any evidence of leaks or corrosion. All that being said, I am not an A&P, I have not done much with GA Mx. I had the same red flags raised when looking, mostly the lack of use/age of engine overhaul, engine accessories, and avionics. The local FBO mechanic showed us the airplane. He was very pleasant and informative. We did not crank or fly the airplane. The broker called me the next day to setup a flight. That may flight may happen next week...

Wow thanks for piping in. This forum is a really great resource!

[Chris W]

25 minutes ago, neonbjb said:

Wow thanks for piping in. This forum is a really great resource!

Yeah, another friend of mine (Ovation Owner) introduced me to this forum this past summer. Before taking a few flights in that Ovation, I was looking at 182s and Bonazas. That may also be due to the experience I'd had in those airframes... The Mooney seems to be a faster more economical solution for our small family. We are really trying to make the Southeast more accessible for our 2 and 3 day weekends. The wanderlust is stong with us. 

[Aviationinfo]

In a perfect world, an airplane really ought to fly at least a couple of times a month for a minimum of an hour in order to burn all the accumulated moisture out of the oil and re-coat the cam and upper end with oil.   Ground running doesn't count because the oil temp doesn't rise enough.  Actually Lycoming has guidance on this and my 2-3 hours/month figure may not exactly match.  I would go with their advice.  I try to fly three or four times per month.

This is just my opinion.  Less flying than that and you should probably have straight weight oil with Camguard to give the best possible chance of success.  In fact, that's not a bad idea regardless of how much the plane is flown.  Again...opinion.   It caused me to be careful when looking for an airplane to buy.

[gsxrpilot]

For those of you who can't seem to find the time to fly regularly, what would you think of letting a young time building pilot have access to the plane for a limited number of hours? Obviously that person would need to be named on the insurance, and that would likely incur some cost for them.  But it still might keep the oil moving where it should be and maintain the health of the engine?  I'm not in this group at the moment as I'm flying almost weekly and logging about 200 hours per year. But if that changed, I think I'd seriously consider making someone a great deal in exchange for regular use.  I fly a turbo 252, so would likely look for a young CFI with a couple of hundred hours. But as long as insurance would cover them, I'd be happy to get him/her a set of keys.

[ArtVandelay]

If you have a partner(s), I would put the plane in an LLC for your protection.

[Hondo]

gsxrpilot

With an experienced pilot operating as a named renter, the insurance cost will likely not increase.  This arrangement eliminates title issues.

A simple cost sharing agreement where  the partner makes a refundable deposit and agrees to pay half the fixed costs, half the maintenance expenses, all of his fuel costs and a reasonable amount per hour for the engine reserve works well.

The Air Force requires four hours per month to stay on flight status.  For some reason that is getting harder to do.