Garmin to Avidyne

[carusoam]

James, I can answer that one easily!

As a VFR pilot spend the minimum amount as you need to.  Then, consider what else you need in the event you end up VFR into IMC.

The whole world is trending off towards WAAS based approaches.  If you decide to fly IFR select one of those WAAS capable GPS devices.

The two issues for a VFR pilot is flying into IMC and running out of gas. Garmin provides for glide range systems to help plan an engine-out solution to go with it's WAAS navcom.

If you go with the BK KSN770 give us a pirep when you get it.  You will be the first MSer to have one.

Now for the answer...

If you spend 60AMU on the panel of a 40 AMU plane.  You can re-sell the 60k instrument panel with an included plane...

There once was a time when you wouldn't put an expensive navigator in a low cost plane.  If you had the money for the electronics you would move up first to a better plane...

People have proved that M20Cs are the proper plane for them.  They hold them for a long time, and the pilots are worthy of the instruments.  There are Cs and Es around here with Aspens and Garmin GTNs and JPis that my O would be jealous of...

good thing my O doesn't have web access.  BK can give you that too.

Best regards,

-a-

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, Hyett6420 said:

You lot are cruel, poor Peter and Don.  I,still love you both even if they are all teasing you.   

thanks for the replies though, i appreciate a home approach is not legal, but could it be programmed in.  I assume if not legal then the answer would be no.  I can see both sides to that argument however.   

So are there any other features that i have not mentioned that you guys find really useful in either product?

Andrew

First, a safe homebrew approach cannot be programmed into the GTN.  There would be no vertical guidance signal output.  But even more important there would be no scaling down from the enroute scaling  of 2 nm full scale.

Regarding other features I like:

1. If you have the GMA 35/35c audio panel, nearly all control of the GTN can be done without touching the GTN with the Telligent verbal commands.

2. Large screen.  Quite a bit larger than the Avidyne IFD 540.

3. Blended traffic display of both Active (GTS 800) and Passive traffic (GDL 88 or GTX 345), but most important is the   TargetTrend display of relative motion of the traffic.

4. Stormscope display,  XM radio, XM weather or FIS-B weather display.

5. Database Concierge for download and automatic upload of all databases from the iPad through the Flight Stream 510. No more Computer database transfers required.

6. Ease of loading Departure Procedures from any runway and their depiction along with Flight Plans, and Airways, and Approaches.

7. Flight plan transfer both directions, from or to the iPad.

8. If wanted, hands off AP control of the whole flight from shortly after takeoff to shortly before landings including any holding patterns that could be thrown at you.

9. Known interface to Garmin transponders, G500, Stormscope, most traffic boxes, the GDL 69 audio and weather box and Shadin fuel. Basically any interface you can think of.

10. Thoughtless, simple Menu that a kindergartener could learn without even knowing how to read.

11. Many more things that I can't think of at the moment.

There is nothing I can think of that I would want to do or information that I would want to have that I can't do or get with the GTN 750.  Same with the 650, but with a smaller screen.

[mike_elliott]

14 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

If you have the room, put in an Avidyne 540 now and also prepurchase the 550 upgrade. It is sold to new buyers of 540s for half what the upgrade price will be once the 550 comes out, a smoking deal. If you don't have room for a 540 MAKE ROOM !

If there's no way you can make a 540 fit, get the 440 with both Bluetooth and WiFi. When 10.2 comes out (free upgrade), get the iPad app (also free) and the combination will be awesome !!!

this is on my short list of upgrades also.

[1964-M20E]

Well unlike my Garmin loving brothers I made my choice to go with Avidyne 540 and the APX322 remote mounted transponder moving up from and KLN94 and I like it a lot.  I was an early adopter and got a good deal.  I also chose Avidyne to encourage competition.  I had to wait until certification to get my 540 but it was worth the wait.  I am still learning the features in the box.  Today they all have so many features you will most likely not use the majority of them and probably will not know how to use the majority of the features.

Database updates are much easier than the KLN94  (no experience with the GTN boxes)

you can us any thumb drive if you choose for database updates

with any luck Seattle Avionics will offer an alternative to Jepp for the database updates.

If you choose the IFD550 it will have syn vision and an ARS built in so you will have a backup AI for IFR flights.  I'm still debating on weather I should pony up for this or go another route.

 

 

[PTK]

The IFD has way too many menus and submenus which translate to button pushes. I want as few button pushes as possible. Simple tasks require a lot more button pushing with the IFD. Also the touch buttons are small. Too much screen real estate of the already smaller screen is taken up by stuff that could be smaller or is not needed. Requiring extra button pushing to remove it.

The GTN 750 has intuition built in and by doing so it requires much less button pushing to accomplish the same task. And the buttons are large and easy to touch.

One other thing I know I would find annoying is the simple task of entering a frequency or a waypoint. Does the IFD remember anything used recently? If it did it would reduce button pushing greatly.

Another example which I found particularly annoying is the map button. If I press the map button it's because I want to see the map. Why does it take me to the chart submenu requiring an extra button push? 

I have not flown the IFD, only the simulator. I compared a few routine tasks I do on my GTN750 to how they'd be done on the IFD540.

[bradp]

Both companies have iPad simulators for their units.  I'd encourage you to play with both until you are really bored.  Then write down some common tasks you perform.  Then try to perform each in the sim and see which one fits you better.  

[FBCK]

One other thing I know I would find annoying is the simple task of entering a frequency or a waypoint. Does the IFD remember anything used recently? If it did it would reduce button pushing greatly.

 

It does remember the above iof you look under the frequency hard button there is a recent category.

 

Another example which I found particularly annoying is the map button. If I press the map button it's because I want to see the map. Why does it take me to the chart submenu requiring an extra button push?

The hard button has a roller function, if you press the right side of the button it will take you to the charts, press the middle it goes to the Map.

 

I purchased the IFD because Avidyne was originally look at Seattle Charts, I was disappointed when they did not go that route, I think they missed a real opportunity.

[KLRDMD]

9 hours ago, 1964-M20E said:

Well unlike my Garmin loving brothers I made my choice to go with Avidyne 540 and the APX322 remote mounted transponder moving up from and KLN94 and I like it a lot. 

I think many of the Garmin proponents are just like many of the ForeFlight proponents. Most people that I've talked to that use ForeFlight were told to buy ForeFlight by someone they know and trust and they did. They never tried another app. The same with Garmin. Most people I know that use other than ForeFlight tried ForeFlight and a number of other apps and decided another app was best for them. Same as Avidyne. Pretty much everyone that buys Avidyne tried Garmin but decided that Avidyne was better for their needs. Most that buy Garmin were told to by someone they trust and they never seriously try anything else (Avidyne). That's just the way it is.

[Kristoffer]

10 hours ago, PTK said:

The IFD has way too many menus and submenus which translate to button pushes. I want as few button pushes as possible. Simple tasks require a lot more button pushing with the IFD. Also the touch buttons are small. Too much screen real estate of the already smaller screen is taken up by stuff that could be smaller or is not needed. Requiring extra button pushing to remove it.

One other thing I know I would find annoying is the simple task of entering a frequency or a waypoint. Does the IFD remember anything used recently? If it did it would reduce button pushing greatly.

Another example which I found particularly annoying is the map button. If I press the map button it's because I want to see the map. Why does it take me to the chart submenu requiring an extra button push? 

I have not flown the IFD, only the simulator. I compared a few routine tasks I do on my GTN750 to how they'd be done on the IFD540.

I love love to hear an example of what takes to many button pushes......

Yes it has recent.

Sub menu to see a map?? It does take you to the Map page. however if you want to see an approach plate you can either press MAP again or the tab.

 

I find that the "GARMIN" guys are like my PC friends. They have never touched a MAC yet they can tell me why a PC is so much better.

 

My advice is to seek out a person who owns and flies with a IFD unit and let him or her show you the feature of the unit before coming to a decision. I was a Garmin guy until I used the IFD and I have not looked back. I just showed my buddy with a G500 & GTN my IFD and he is looking into adding the IFD to his 2nd nav/com come because he like it so much. I'm not saying to buy one over the other. I'm simply saying you would be doing yourself an injustice if you take the advice of others without first hand experience.

[Bob_Belville]

5 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

I think many of the Garmin proponents are just like many of the ForeFlight proponents. Most people that I've talked to that use ForeFlight were told to buy ForeFlight by someone they know and trust and they did. They never tried another app. The same with Garmin. Most people I know that use other than ForeFlight tried ForeFlight and a number of other apps and decided another app was best for them. Same as Avidyne. Pretty much everyone that buys Avidyne tried Garmin but decided that Avidyne was better for their needs. Most that buy Garmin were told to by someone they trust and they never seriously try anything else (Avidyne). That's just the way it is.

I'm sure you can back up that (condescending) analysis.

[KLRDMD]

Just now, Bob_Belville said:

I'm sure you can back up that (condescending) analysis.

I've asked the question on a number of forums and consistently get the same response.

[gsxrpilot]

12 hours ago, Kristoffer said:

I find that the "GARMIN" guys are like my PC friends. They have never touched a MAC yet they can tell me why a PC is so much better.

Hahahaha... so true.

[PTK]

I'm of the opinion that if it wasn't for Garmin GA avionics would still be in the dark ages.

Garmin, did two things for us: They brought to the ga cockpit technology that commercial aviation wishes they had at a price we can afford. Single handedly I might add and in a way no one else could. We can debate all day long as to which is the "better" box. But one thing is clear...there's Garmin and then there are all the rest who wish they were but they can't. To their credit however some do make a good effort to follow the leader and try to keep up. 

Think where the ga cockpit would be today without Garmin.

[ArtVandelay]

I have Garmin partly because Avidyne was vaporware at the time of my upgrade.
I have GP because it let me try it out free for 30 days, Foreflight wanted $.
I have the same interface on both, a definite plus.

[Andy95W]

2 hours ago, PTK said:

I'm of the opinion that if it wasn't for Garmin GA avionics would still be in the dark ages.

Garmin, did two things for us: They brought to the ga cockpit technology that commercial aviation wishes they had at a price we can afford. Single handedly I might add and in a way no one else could. We can debate all day long as to which is the "better" box. But one thing is clear...there's Garmin and then there are all the rest who wish they were but they can't. To their credit however some do make a good effort to follow the leader and try to keep up. 

Think where the ga cockpit would be today without Garmin.

Agreed.

But I am still glad that Avidyne (and others) are providing competition for Garmin.

[Kristoffer]

9 hours ago, PTK said:

I'm of the opinion that if it wasn't for Garmin GA avionics would still be in the dark ages.

Garmin, did two things for us: They brought to the ga cockpit technology that commercial aviation wishes they had at a price we can afford. Single handedly I might add and in a way no one else could. We can debate all day long as to which is the "better" box. But one thing is clear...there's Garmin and then there are all the rest who wish they were but they can't. To their credit however some do make a good effort to follow the leader and try to keep up. 

Think where the ga cockpit would be today without Garmin.

Garmin makes a GREAT product, no doubt about it. We can also thank them for raising the bar for GA 20 years ago. Henry Ford was credited with the assembly line and making cars "affordable" (relative term back then). Yes we can thank him. But just because he revolutionized car manufacturing doesn't mean years later Ford is still the best. The same holds true for Garmin. Yes they make a great product. But don't think companies like Avidyne haven't raised the bar even for Garmin. In the end we all win. Competition has both kept cost down (hard to believe I know) and has forced the companies to continue to be innovative. Eliminating either company would only hurt us, the consumer. 

 

[PTK]

9 minutes ago, Kristoffer said:

Garmin makes a GREAT product, no doubt about it. We can also thank them for raising the bar for GA 20 years ago. Henry Ford was credited with the assembly line and making cars "affordable" (relative term back then). Yes we can thank him. But just because he revolutionized car manufacturing doesn't mean years later Ford is still the best. The same holds true for Garmin. Yes they make a great product. But don't think companies like Avidyne haven't raised the bar even for Garmin. In the end we all win. Competition has both kept cost down (hard to believe I know) and has forced the companies to continue to be innovative. Eliminating either company would only hurt us, the consumer. 

 

GA avionics are not automobiles.  

Garmin revolutionized GA avionics, made it affordable for us and dictates cost.

This is evident as I don't see them reducing the cost of their products due to Avidyne or anyone else. Reason is they're not any competition. Garmin is that good.

No one said eliminate any company?!

 

[Kristoffer]

18 minutes ago, PTK said:

GA avionics are not automobiles.  

Garmin revolutionized GA avionics, made it affordable for us and dictates cost.

This is evident as I don't see them reducing the cost of their products due to Avidyne or anyone else. Reason is they're not any competition. Garmin is that good.

No one said eliminate any company?!

 

Don't you think Avidyne's presence in the market has kept prices down? If you don't believe Avidyne is competition for Garmin then you are sadly mistaken. It is Garmin's customers that Avidyne has marketed to and has taken a market share of.

 

 

[PTK]

6 minutes ago, Kristoffer said:

Don't you think Avidyne's presence in the market has kept prices down? If you don't believe Avidyne is competition for Garmin then you are sadly mistaken. It is Garmin's customers that Avidyne has marketed to and has taken a market share of.

 

 

I just don't see it that way.

Take the GTN750 as an example. Price has not come down. What has happened is the opposite. The price of the Avidyne 540 is up to 750 level! For the same money customers naturally choose Garmin. This is what I mean when I say Garmin dictates cost. The smart thing for Avidyne to do would be to recognize they're not Garmin and stop pretending they are. Keep the 540 at a price point lower than the GTN.

[Kristoffer]

40 minutes ago, PTK said:

I just don't see it that way.

Take the GTN750 as an example. Price has not come down. What has happened is the opposite. The price of the Avidyne 540 is up to 750 level! For the same money customers naturally choose Garmin. This is what I mean when I say Garmin dictates cost. The smart thing for Avidyne to do would be to recognize they're not Garmin and stop pretending they are. Keep the 540 at a price point lower than the GTN.

First of all. As a business owner if you can charge your customers the same money for an item and still save them money why wouldn't you. After all you are in business to maximize your profits and now your doing so while saving your customers. (Something Garmin could have done but put their profits ahead of its customers.) When you factor cost of installation to swap a 430/530 to a 650/750 vs a 430/530 to a 440/540, Avidyne is less expensive. You must take that into account as EVERYONE has to pay for installation of the units. Hence, if you are upgrading (and most people are), Avidyne just saved you a tone of money.

No Avidyne is not Garmin and they have never pretended to be. Just because because they compete for the same customers doesn't make one company trying to be another. I'm an iPhone guy. They revolutionized smart phones. I'm thrilled Samsung & Andriod exist and keep Apple on their toes. But that doesn't mean Samsung and Andriod are trying to be Apple. They are merely fighting for market share.

Again I'm not knocking Garmin. I have owned and still own Garmin products. But to think they are the end all and no other product can compete solely based on a brand name is a little naive.

I appreciate this friendly debate! Cheers!! 

P.S. Mac over PC, Chevy muscle cars over Ford (even though I actually own neither as I prefer German cars) & I'll keep politics out of this conversation 

Edited October 30, 2016 by Kristoffer

[KLRDMD]

1 hour ago, PTK said:

Take the GTN750 as an example. Price has not come down. What has happened is the opposite. The price of the Avidyne 540 is up to 750 level! For the same money customers naturally choose Garmin.

I just paid $13,300 for an Avidyne 540. Please tell me where you can buy a Garmin 750 for that price.

[PTK]

9 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

I just paid $13,300 for an Avidyne 540. Please tell me where you can buy a Garmin 750 for that price.

The 540 display is 4.75" x 3.5", 307000 pixels with a 5.7" diagonal. Only 0.2" larger diagonal than a 530.

The 750 is 4.46" x 5.27" with a huge 6.9" diagonal, 425000 pixels. 

The cost of the Garmin 750 at ~14,500$ may appear to be higher but in actuality its not!  30% more pixels at only 10% higher cost!

Could it be the 540 is a little overpriced?

You see...it's very simple!!

 

[KLRDMD]

3 minutes ago, PTK said:

The 540 display is 4.75" x 3.5", 307000 pixels with a 5.7" diagonal. Only 0.2 " larger diagonal than a 530.

The 750 is 4.46" x 5.27" with a huge 6.9" diagonal, 425000 pixels. 

So the cost of the Garmin 750 at ~14,500$ may appear to be higher but in actuality its not! Could it be that the 540 is a little overpriced?

You see...it's very simple!!

A Garmin apologist extraordinaire ! 

[PTK]

4 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

A Garmin apologist extraordinaire ! 

Think about it. Do you disagree?

[KLRDMD]

Just now, PTK said:

Think about it. Do you disagree?

I asked for a reference for a $13,300 Garmin 750 since you said it is the same price as an Avidyne 540. Instead I get a reply about $/pixel. Yes I disagree.

I haven't seen a Garmin 750 for $14,500 for a certified airplane. The best price I can find for a GTN750 for a certified airplane is $18,000.  Add in installation costs and the two are many thousands of dollars difference.

And the Avidyne is a better unit. No contest.